Warren Moon is not Hall worthy

[billmatic]

Re: Warren Moon is not Hall worthy

He didn't mention Superbowl in his last paragraph. Besides, you'd figure if Marino was the "legend" he is he would have been able to propel his team to a couple more Superbowl appearances instead of just the one in his second season (according to Jistic laws of football).

ah, missed the "last paragraph" part. cool.

[blackceasar]

Re: Warren Moon is not Hall worthy

Warren Moon is definitely a Hall of Famer.

IMO hes one of those "after death/near deat" HOF'ers. You know...the ones who are on the bubble but had a great personality and were very poplular. They get in when they are really old and in a wheel chair or a few years after they pass away.

[Jistic]

Re: Warren Moon is not Hall worthy

He didn't mention Superbowl in his last paragraph. Besides, you'd figure if Marino was the "legend" he is he would have been able to propel his team to a couple more Superbowl appearances instead of just the one in his second season (according to Jistic laws of football).

No it's all about numbers. SInce numbers are what everybody seems to be wowed by then Marino is the greatest ever. #1 in every major category.

I wouldn't even burden the legend of Moon with a Super Bowl win, hell a conference championship appearancewould've been nice. But that would've been pushing it. As long as that stats are there, that's all that matters.

[SportsTop]

Re: Warren Moon is not Hall worthy

IMO hes one of those "after death/near deat" HOF'ers. You know...the ones who are on the bubble but had a great personality and were very poplular. They get in when they are really old and in a wheel chair or a few years after they pass away.

Huh?

[blackceasar]

Re: Warren Moon is not Hall worthy

No it's all about numbers. SInce numbers are what everybody seems to be wowed by then Marino is the greatest ever. #1 in every major category.

I wouldn't even burden the legend of Moon with a Super Bowl win, hell a conference championship appearancewould've been nice. But that would've been pushing it. As long as that stats are there, that's all that matters.

Its funny though how people wanna use the "won a championship" clause ONLY when it suits them though. The reality is that one person in the NFL does not get you to superbowls and wins them. What if Moon or Marino had 70,000 career passing yards, 500 career TD's, etc etc but never even made it to the SB? What if thier defense stunk so bad that in the big games it wasnt them that didnt step up it was the rest of the team or the Defense. Im sorry, If Im a QB and I throw 20/30 for 340+ yards 4 TD's no INT's and we still get beat 35-28 I DID MY JOB. Period. I dont care, I said it before and I will say it again. When you look at a TEAM's greatness, Superbowls carry more weight than anything else. I dont care how many team sacks you had, i dont care what your teams total offense or defense was, I care about that team getting to the big game and winning it. When you look at ONE single INDIVIDUAL player's "greatness".. Superbowls are overrated. Its like one man taking the credit for what took an entire team to do. Do I think now that Brady is a better QB than Manning? Yup..ive seen the light..but it has absolutely NOTHING to do with his rings.

[fistofrage]

Re: Warren Moon is not Hall worthy

Its funny though how people wanna use the "won a championship" clause ONLY when it suits them though. The reality is that one person in the NFL does not get you to superbowls and wins them. What if Moon or Marino had 70,000 career passing yards, 500 career TD's, etc etc but never even made it to the SB? What if thier defense stunk so bad that in the big games it wasnt them that didnt step up it was the rest of the team or the Defense. Im sorry, If Im a QB and I throw 20/30 for 340+ yards 4 TD's no INT's and we still get beat 35-28 I DID MY JOB. Period. I dont care, I said it before and I will say it again. When you look at a TEAM's greatness, Superbowls carry more weight than anything else. I dont care how many team sacks you had, i dont care what your teams total offense or defense was, I care about that team getting to the big game and winning it. When you look at ONE single INDIVIDUAL player's "greatness".. Superbowls are overrated. Its like one man taking the credit for what took an entire team to do. Do I think now that Brady is a better QB than Manning? Yup..ive seen the light..but it has absolutely NOTHING to do with his rings.

In football, its generally accepted that the QB takes the accolades for winning the Superbowl or the teams lack of winning. A QB almost has to win the big game to be considered great or at least reach the big game regardless of stats. Its the only position on the field where it applies, but its fact. If you put up Barry Sanders/Eric Dickerson numbers at RB, you are in the hall regardless of team achievemnet. Same would go for receivers like Tim Brown.

QB is all about the victory. If you put up big numbers as a QB but can't win the big game, the offense is considered a system or a gimmick. Its the QB's job to make the drive, to get the score regardless if your defense can stop the other team or not. I am not saying its right or wrong, its just the way it is.

[marq]

Re: Warren Moon is not Hall worthy

I agree, rings are overrated in team sports when talking about individual greatness. The NFL is the ultimate team sport...one player CANNOT have his individual greatness doubted because the other 53 players on his team did not live up to expectations. For instance, Cody Carlson wasn't leading the Oilers to the playoffs consistently...and Marino was the ONLY reason that the Dolphins were considered a threat...but everybody knew that the rest of the team was lacking...(I still can't see how you throw for 6 touchdowns in a game and lose)...some of these players never played with another HOFer unlike Aikman, Emmitt, Montana, Bradshaw, Young...just happens that way, but their legacies should not be diminished because of it...Marino and Barry Sanders shouldn't be penalized, neither should Bonds or now Moon (Nolan got a ring with the '69 Mets)...but so goes the sports world and their qualifiers...

[rudyjuly2]

Re: Warren Moon is not Hall worthy

...and Marino was the ONLY reason that the Dolphins were considered a threat...but everybody knew that the rest of the team was lacking...

Damn straight. Maybe I'm a homer but the guy never had a 1000 yard rusher until Abdul-Jabaar and he wasn't anything special. His defenses were always in the bottom 10 of the league. You can only overcome so much.

People that compare Manning to Marino are missing the point. Peyton had Edgerrin James who is one of the top backs in the game. Marino had Sammie Smith, Lorenzo Hampton and Jabaar. Marino did have the Marks brothers but neither are HOFs like Harrison who is one of the best ever. Peyton had a top defense this year, Marino never had one. Peyton put a gun to the Colts organization and got a $32 mil bonus and gets $14 million a year. Despite the fact he takes up so much cap space, people seem to blame others for big losses. Peyton demanded a ton of money, he gets paid as the best player in the league but doesn't play like the best player in the biggest games. Sorry for the sidetrack.

[SportsTop]

Re: Warren Moon is not Hall worthy

Damn straight. Maybe I'm a homer but the guy never had a 1000 yard rusher until Abdul-Jabaar and he wasn't anything special. His defenses were always in the bottom 10 of the league. You can only overcome so much.

People that compare Manning to Marino are missing the point. Peyton had Edgerrin James who is one of the top backs in the game. Marino had Sammie Smith, Lorenzo Hampton and Jabaar. Marino did have the Marks brothers but neither are HOFs like Harrison who is one of the best ever. Peyton had a top defense this year, Marino never had one. Peyton put a gun to the Colts organization and got a $32 mil bonus and gets $14 million a year. Despite the fact he takes up so much cap space, people seem to blame others for big losses. Peyton demanded a ton of money, he gets paid as the best player in the league but doesn't play like the best player in the biggest games. Sorry for the sidetrack.

We aren't here to debate Marino's greatness. I think we can all agree that he is one of the best ever. But his lack of a RB is purely a management/coach decision. And from what I hear, he didn't want to run the ball anyway. If he could he would've flung that ball around 60-70 times per game. He and Shula made that bed.

[iLLmatic]

Re: Warren Moon is not Hall worthy

Damn straight. Maybe I'm a homer but the guy never had a 1000 yard rusher until Abdul-Jabaar and he wasn't anything special. His defenses were always in the bottom 10 of the league. You can only overcome so much.

People that compare Manning to Marino are missing the point. Peyton had Edgerrin James who is one of the top backs in the game. Marino had Sammie Smith, Lorenzo Hampton and Jabaar. Marino did have the Marks brothers but neither are HOFs like Harrison who is one of the best ever. Peyton had a top defense this year, Marino never had one. Peyton put a gun to the Colts organization and got a $32 mil bonus and gets $14 million a year. Despite the fact he takes up so much cap space, people seem to blame others for big losses. Peyton demanded a ton of money, he gets paid as the best player in the league but doesn't play like the best player in the biggest games. Sorry for the sidetrack.

What killed Marino is his inability to win the big game and never taking the blame for his mistakes. How many of us can remember him diggin deep inside of one his receivers duper, clayton whoever and yellin and carryin on? I very clearly remember Marino throwin balls in the dirt and not gettin it done. He got exposed by (check the avatar) in the Super Bowl and it continued in all big games after that. He was exposed through out his career as a stat man like manning. Some guys will NEVER win the big game. Manning is paid all that bread and he will NEVER win the Super Bowl. Its the ol' tight booty hole theory. when the games get big that hole tightens up and he cant perform. Many athletes have and had this problem.

And as far as marino he never wanted to get a good enough running back in there because he wanted them stats. Cant throw for thousands of yards a season and throw a gang of TD's when you are expected to run the ball too. Marino is selfish and he never learned as did Elway that until he was willing to play his role and let Terrell Davis run behind that line and make plays as needed was when Elway won his rings.

I know this aint about Marino but I said anyway.
Moon deserved to be in the hall.

[marq]

Re: Warren Moon is not Hall worthy

What killed Marino is his inability to win the big game and never taking the blame for his mistakes. How many of us can remember him diggin deep inside of one his receivers duper, clayton whoever and yellin and carryin on? I very clearly remember Marino throwin balls in the dirt and not gettin it done. He got exposed by (check the avatar) in the Super Bowl and it continued in all big games after that. He was exposed through out his career as a stat man like manning. Some guys will NEVER win the big game. Manning is paid all that bread and he will NEVER win the Super Bowl. Its the ol' tight booty hole theory. when the games get big that hole tightens up and he cant perform. Many athletes have and had this problem.

And as far as marino he never wanted to get a good enough running back in there because he wanted them stats. Cant throw for thousands of yards a season and throw a gang of TD's when you are expected to run the ball too. Marino is selfish and he never learned as did Elway that until he was willing to play his role and let Terrell Davis run behind that line and make plays as needed was when Elway won his rings.

I know this aint about Marino but I said anyway.
Moon deserved to be in the hall.

Very foolish and shows that football knowledge is lacking...oh, and the Dolphins lost that Super Bowl because 1) the defense couldn't takle Roger Craig, and 2) the offensive line couldn't block a 4 man rush...not to mention SF had a number of HOFers on their team...but please let's not go here as Marino's greatness is unquestioned and his accomplishments speak for themselves...though it is true that Elway gets no rings without Davis back there (which the media LOVES to forget).

[iLLmatic]

Re: Warren Moon is not Hall worthy

Very foolish and shows that football knowledge is lacking...oh, and the Dolphins lost that Super Bowl because 1) the defense couldn't takle Roger Craig, and 2) the offensive line couldn't block a 4 man rush...not to mention SF had a number of HOFers on their team...but please let's not go here as Marino's greatness is unquestioned and his accomplishments speak for themselves...though it is true that Elway gets no rings without Davis back there (which the media LOVES to forget).

Wow. Football knowledge lacking?

Number of Hall of Famers?

Do YOU know how many of those players actually are in the Hall of Fame?
Montana, Lott.

I knew this but here let me help you out you football professor you.
http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/teams.jsp

Thought there was more huh?
And this link is for all the rest of you fools who think the Niners won all those rings because of "ALL THOSE HALL OF FAMERS".

They couldnt stop Joe Montana. Mind you wasnt Marino the MVP and the 48 td throwing machine? Sounds kinda like Manning.

Close that mouth.

"Number of Hall of Famers". LOL now thats comedy.

[EaglesFan]

Re: Warren Moon is not Hall worthy

And this link is for all the rest of you fools who think the Niners won all those rings because of "ALL THOSE HALL OF FAMERS".

Walsh was an offensive genius.

[TexansFanDC8]

Re: Warren Moon is not Hall worthy

Stats, stats, run-and-shoot stats.

And get the "f" outta here with that CFL nonsense. Barely a pro sport.

Can you name one great game the guy ever had? I remember Fouts against Miami and a number of others. I remember Elways and Aikman's great throws.

I honestly don't remember a single play of significance in Moon's career. Not one. And I live in Texas so I saw most of his games on TV here.

When you throw 40+ passes a game and Ernest Givens takes a five-yard slant 70 yards, you tend to look good.

Again, not saying he wasn't a good QB. But he is NOT worthy of the Hall.

Oh, and I'm not the only person that thinks this, unlike some of you seem to suggest.

No big games, hmm, lemme think.

* December 16, 1990 - Warren Moon threw for the second most yardage ever in a single game in NFL history, 527 against the Kansas City Chiefs.

* He also is tied for second all-time with Joe Montana behind only Dan Marino with 7 games throwing for at least 400 yards.

* He is thrid all-time behind only Dan Marino and Dan Fouts with 49 games throwing for at least 300 yards.

* He is tied for the second most 300-yard passing games in a season with 9, which he did in 1990.

* He is third all-time with 9 seasons throwing for 3000 yards or more.

* He is third all-time with passes completed in a game with 41.

* He is second all time with passes completed in a season with 404.

And to all this talk about how his CFL achievements mean nothing, well, if that was the case, they wouldn't mention them in his biography which is on the Hall of Fame website. Aside from that, as fans, we don't have any say as to who gets in or doesn't, we just argue about it. Some voters think championships make a lot of difference, while others don't. If you go by titles, Moon, Tarkenton, Kelly, Marino and Fouts among others are not in the Hall of Fame. If you go by numbers, all of them are and guys like Aikman aren't. Different attributes make different QBs special and great.

I was born an Oiler fan, idolizing Earl Campbell in my youngest days, and Warren Moon later on. Warren Moon is significant for many reasons. He's the first African-American to go in, but that is not why he's going in. He also doesn't fit the mold of the stereotypical African-American QB, like McNabb did, Randal Cunningham, Michael Vick and others. He was a pocket-passer who was mobile for a big man, much in the same mold as Daunte Culpepper. I feel fortunate for being able to see him play in-person and on TV and actually meeting him when I was a kid. He is a Hall of Famer. But above all, this whole entire argument is pointless, because he's now going to be one officially.

[rudyjuly2]

Re: Warren Moon is not Hall worthy

And as far as marino he never wanted to get a good enough running back in there because he wanted them stats. Cant throw for thousands of yards a season and throw a gang of TD's when you are expected to run the ball too. Marino is selfish and he never learned as did Elway that until he was willing to play his role and let Terrell Davis run behind that line and make plays as needed was when Elway won his rings.

I know this aint about Marino but I said anyway.
Moon deserved to be in the hall.

I only brought up Marino as somebody compared him to Moon in an earlier post and I felt the need to defend him.

Secondly, Marino was a super competitor and not the selfish prick some of you guys think. There definately was truth to the fact that Marino wanted to throw a ton and not hand the ball off but it wasn't because he wanted to pad his stats. He simply felt him throwing the ball was the best way to win because he had tremendous confidence in himself as well as great passion to win. If he had a Terrell Davis or an Edge, he wouldn't have minded running the ball. But his point is, why try to establish a running game that doesn't exist cause our running backs suck when I'm the greatest QB and can do so much better? Anyway, just had to stick up for Danny.

P.S. Montana lost in the first round of the playoffs at home to Minnesota when they had the number 1 offense and defense in the league. Nobody can do it alone and Montana had tremendous talent around him on both sides of the ball.