Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

[TheWatcher]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

Like you said Gale Sayers had his career cut short by injury. But during those five seasons he made 1st Team All-Pro every single year (meaning the writers thought he was one of the two best running backs in the league). His injury was completely tragic, but happened to a lot of running backs back then. Inducting him was done not only to recognize his extraordinary talent, but also to recognize the other running backs of the era that had their careers cut short. Lastly, check his average yards per kick return (30!), he leads all kick returners all-time. For those five years Sayers was essentially a combination of Devin Hester and Barry Sanders and would have done so much more had the medical technology been better.

Believe me, I think Gale Sayers was deserving considering that his game could only be compared to the league's then-current history, to which he stacked up well enough statistically.

But if Gale had that same short career in this era he wouldn't have made it or even gotten a look unless he was on a team that accomplished a lot.

As for interceptions, check all the great QBs that played in the '60s. They all threw a lot of interceptions, even the best ones.

It's not even so much that they threw a lot of picks... the QB's throw a lot of picks now, too. It's just that some QB's throw too many. Namath threw nearly 50 more INT's than TD's and he came from the AFL which was a serious passing league. Take a look at 3 top QB's who played in the pre-modern era in the NFL when passing had a lot of handcuffs:

Johnny Unitas --- 290 TD, 253 INT's

Charlie Conerly --- 173 TD's, 167 INT's

Bart Starr ---- 152 TD's, 138 INT's

... Joe Namath ----173 TD's, 220 INT's

And Namath played in far fewer games than Unitas and Starr. That's not good.

That might have been part of the reason Namath was inducted, too. I think Namath was inducted for a lot of superficial reasons in addition to some of the things he did on the field, like his changing lifestyle, his establishment of the AFL/AFC as an equal to the NFL, and that one Super Bowl game. He was extremely important to the game's history.

I agree with that. I also think the voters went back and forth on this a lot, because he wasn't inducted until '85 even though he was eligible in '82.

Fouts was a stats guy. When he retired I think he would've been 2nd all-time in passing yards and 4th in touchdowns. A lot of people would agree with you that he shouldn't have gotten in, but in terms of stats he was probably the standard before Marino. He had three consecutive 4,000 yard seasons (almost cracked 5,000) and cracked 30 touchdowns two years in a row.

I'm not saying Fouts was undeserving per se, but definitely questionable. He didn't show up in big games, and then the fact that Marino started tearing his records to shreds while he was still in the league really cheapened his selection. But Fouts was a media darling, and if you're even half-way decent and the media loves you then you have a great shot.

Warner hasn't achieved that on the all-time lists quite yet, which is why I think he needs more seasons.

I believe Warner's 4830 yards in '01 ranked him (at the time) #2 all-time behind Marino for a single season. Fout's highest was 4802. And Warner' s 41 TD's in '99 made him 3rd all-time in a single season... the guy who held spots #1 and #2? Dan Marino with 48 an 44 respectively.

[lonewolf371]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

All terrific points. I'm not going to respond to all of them, but I'll cover this one:

I believe Warner's 4830 yards in '01 ranked him (at the time) #2 all-time behind Marino for a single season. Fout's highest was 4802. And Warner' s 41 TD's in '99 made him 3rd all-time in a single season... the guy who held spots #1 and #2? Dan Marino with 48 an 44 respectively.

Warner had terrific years in '99 and '01. However, it's only two seasons. Add in 2008 and you can probably say three, maybe four with 2000. In any case, as far as season's go, Daunte Culpepper had a 4,717 yard (7th all-time), 39 touchdown (6th all-time) season in 2004, yet we're not considering him. Drew Brees has three of the top 23 seasons for passing yardage, do you think he'll get in? If so, would you put Warner in over him? Those are just some thoughts.

Overall, I don't think Warner is deserving as of today. If he were to retire today, five years from now, after the hype of 2008 wore off, I don't think he'd get in. In my opinion, he's not deserving as of today.

[wwharton]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

All terrific points. I'm not going to respond to all of them, but I'll cover this one:


Warner had terrific years in '99 and '01. However, it's only two seasons. Add in 2008 and you can probably say three, maybe four with 2000. In any case, as far as season's go, Daunte Culpepper had a 4,717 yard (7th all-time), 39 touchdown (6th all-time) season in 2004, yet we're not considering him. Drew Brees has three of the top 23 seasons for passing yardage, do you think he'll get in? If so, would you put Warner in over him? Those are just some thoughts.

Overall, I don't think Warner is deserving as of today. If he were to retire today, five years from now, after the hype of 2008 wore off, I don't think he'd get in. In my opinion, he's not deserving as of today.

You're really reaching to skew some stats in this thread but this post, you can't really even try to discount things. Four of the greatest QB seasons ever is most definitely HOF worthy. It's not just 4 good seasons. You take Culpepper's one season and compare it? Really? Yes, if Culpepper had 4 more seasons like that, 3 trips to the SB and a SB MVP award then we would be talking about him too. And if Brees keeps it up and gets a ring or two or at least to a few SB games then we will be talking about him too.

[z Revis]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

I still think he's borderline HOF. He hasn't been consistent enough throughout the course of his career. He's had a few HOF-like seasons, but so have many other players that will never get into the Hall.

[wwharton]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

I still think he's borderline HOF. He hasn't been consistent enough throughout the course of his career. He's had a few HOF-like seasons, but so have many other players that will never get into the Hall.

Name some.

We can go by lonewolf since he's leading the charge against Warner getting in... he has Warner with 4 HOF-like seasons. Who do you have that will never get in with 4 HOF-like (not good or pro bowl level) seasons?

[drae2]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

I say he is. 3 Superbowls. 1 win. Career 65% passer. Career passer rating of 94. After this season he will have over 200 td passes. 75 pass plays of over 40yds. 4 time pro bowler. 2 time first team all pro. 2 time NFL MVP. 1 time Superbowl MVP. There are QB's in the Hall right now that can't compare to this resume. Yes, he's Canton Bound.

[drae2]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

Earl Morrall won an MVP, played in two Super Bowls and has three rings, but hasn't gotten in. Joe Theisman won an MVP, played in two Super Bowls and has one ring, but probably won't get in. Plunkett won two Super Bowls and hasn't gotten in. Stabler won an MVP and a Super Bowl and hasn't gotten in. Esiason won an MVP and lost a Super Bowl, hasn't gotten in. Terrell Davis won two Super Bowls and has an MVP, hasn't gotten in. I don't think anyone has won two MVPs and played in three Super Bowls and not gotten in, but if there'll ever be one Warner will be the first. :P

Okay out of the guys you just listed, tell me where they rank in the top ten all time in any of the significant categories. They don't. Kurt does.

[lonewolf371]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

Okay out of the guys you just listed, tell me where they rank in the top ten all time in any of the significant categories. They don't. Kurt does.

You mean passing touchdowns and yards? I don't think any are top ten, but Esiason is 14th in yards and touchdowns (13th in completions if that matters to you). If you think top ten in passer rating warrants consideration for the Hall of Fame, you might as well add Tony Romo, Philip Rivers, Ben Roethlisberger, and Chad Pennington. The problem with passer rating is every successive decade has higher passer ratings because the game's rules favor the passing game more. So essentially, to me and a lot of sports writers that vote on the Hall it's a meaningless statistic.

[SkinsFan4Life]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

2008 was his first complete season since 2001 and only his 3rd complete season overall. From 1998 through 2008, he averaged playing less than 10 games per season and starting a little over 9 games per season. He's had 93 fumbles in that time, compared to Peyton Manning's 53. From 2002 through 2006, Kurt Warner was not someone anyone thought of in such a way... check the stats...
no 3,000 yard seasons during that time... he never played more than 10 games in a season during that span... he's fought just be a starting quarterback and LOST the job... From 2002 through 2006, he threw more than 6 TDs once... he may have a good 1st and 3rd act, but his 2nd act is lacking

[TheWatcher]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

2008 was his first complete season since 2001 and only his 3rd complete season overall. From 1998 through 2008, he averaged playing less than 10 games per season and starting a little over 9 games per season. He's had 93 fumbles in that time, compared to Peyton Manning's 53. From 2002 through 2006, Kurt Warner was not someone anyone thought of in such a way... check the stats...
no 3,000 yard seasons during that time... he never played more than 10 games in a season during that span... he's fought just be a starting quarterback and LOST the job... From 2002 through 2006, he threw more than 6 TDs once... he may have a good 1st and 3rd act, but his 2nd act is lacking

Terry Bradshaw lost the starting job on a few occasions. Elway was benched early on. Favre got traded to Green Bay. Johnny Unitas got cut from the Steelers. Joe Montana was benched in a playoff game and then got traded years later (after winning 2 more Super Bowls) because the organization felt Steve Young would give them a better chance (not that you can go wrong with Steve Young at QB).

But all of those guys came back, and so did Warner. So really, his story is in a similar neighborhood as other greats in that regard.

[SportsTop]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

After today Kurt Warner is second all-time in postseason QB rating at 104.6 (just 2/10's of a point off of Bart Starr's mark of 104.8).

His playoff record is 9-3.

He tied Joe Montana and Peyton Manning with the most 300 yard playoff passing games (6) in three less games than Manning and eleven less than Montana.

He averagees 312 yards passing per playoff game.

The guy is going into the HOF on the first ballot.

Book it.

[Piderman]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

After today Kurt Warner is second all-time in postseason QB rating at 104.6 (just 2/10's of a point off of Bart Starr's mark of 104.8).

His playoff record is 9-3.

He tied Joe Montana and Peyton Manning with the most 300 yard playoff passing games (6) in three less games than Manning and eleven less than Montana.

He averagees 312 yards passing per playoff game.

The guy is going into the HOF on the first ballot.

Book it.

Even more so if he wins the Superbowl

[z Revis]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

After today Kurt Warner is second all-time in postseason QB rating at 104.6 (just 2/10's of a point off of Bart Starr's mark of 104.8).

His playoff record is 9-3.

He tied Joe Montana and Peyton Manning with the most 300 yard playoff passing games (6) in three less games than Manning and eleven less than Montana.

He averagees 312 yards passing per playoff game.

The guy is going into the HOF on the first ballot.

Book it.

No doubt. He's paved his way to Canton.

[TheMatrix31]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

....he's won a Super Bowl before.

Like I said in the game thread, if he's not a Hall of Famer on the first ballot, it will be a TRAVESTY.

[Chip Douglass]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

Has anyone else noticed the progression of opinions from "lol why is this a conversation?" to "1st ballot HOF no doubt"?