Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

[SPTO]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

Which quarterback has ever carried a team without being surrounded by talent?

Trent Dilfer....oh wait.

[hamannator]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

No. He hasn't shown that he can lift a team by himself, he needs to be surrounded by talent to do anything. That isn't a Hall of Famer to me. The three or four good years he's had he's had the luxury of having at least two receivers who would be number one's on any other team and he had Marshall Faulk when he was with the Rams. And while the Cardinals didn't run the ball this year, they played in a horrendous division so it didn't really matter what they did.

I'll use my comparrison to Troy Aikman again. Take him away from the Cowboys and put him on a different team. Chances are he doesn't go to the HoF, but the Cowboys still win all their Super Bowls. Aikman, again, isn't half the quarterback Warner is. So he was exposed to a greater chance of getting injured in the type of offense he was in in St. Louis, that's not his fault. And as has been pointed out, the 3 or 4 good seasons Warner has had have been some of the best seasons for a quarterback in NFL history. He's got the highest completion percentage in NFL history among QB's with at least 3,000 attempts, and I believe he has either the first or second rating out of QB's with the same amount of attempts. He's easily in the HoF if quarterbacks like Terry Bradshaw, Troy Aikman, and Joe Namath are in it.

[jmood88]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

I'm sorry, but that's just silly. You want to penalize a guy because he had quality players around him? Joe Montana had Jerry Rice, I guess he shouldn't get in because he didn't elevate a bunch of scrubs into great players. It goes both ways, Warner was good in part because of the guys around him, and they were good in part because of Warner. How many Superbowl appearances have the Rams had since Warner left?

No I'm penalizing him because once he left the great situation he had with the Rams he played like **** until recently. There's a reason he was benched when he played for the Giants and earlier on with the Cardinals.

[Misfit]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

Yeah, and I would argue those reasons were injury related. And now he's getting a lot of credit for turning the Arizona franchise around. Yeah, there are some good players on that team as well, but he put up MVP quality numbers without a running game and for a franchise with no history of winning. And now he's playing in his third Superbowl. I think that more than anything validates what he did with the Rams.

[SPTO]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

I still don't think that there's any way that he should be in the Hall of Fame. Having three or 4 good years in a 10 year career doesn't make someone a Hall of Famer.

Tell that to Joe Namath, Bob Griese and Terry Bradshaw.

[hamannator]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

Why has Bulger not been able to do the same kind of things Warner did in his tenure as the starting QB in St. Louis? Hmmmmm.

[jmood88]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

Why has Bulger not been able to do the same kind of things Warner did in his tenure as the starting QB in St. Louis? Hmmmmm.

Because his offensive line is horrible and he's dealing with former stars. He isn't playing with Issac Bruce, Orlando Pace,Torry Holt, and Marshall Faulk in their prime. He has Stephen Jackson and that's it.

[TheLetterZ]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

Because his offensive line is horrible and he's dealing with former stars. He wasn't playing with Issac Bruce, Torry Holt, and Marshall Faulk in their prime. He has Stephen Jackson and that's it.

But what quarterback has ever carried his team without other offensive weapons? I can't think of anyone.

[Misfit]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

And for the sake of discussion, Warner's quarterback ratings from 2004 (first year with the Giants) to now:

86.5
85.8
89.3
89.8
96.9

He was never benched for ineffectiveness. He was benched because of injury and politics. Both franchises spent a lot of money on first round draft picks at quarterback and owners don't like it when those big ticket players sit on the bench. Warner should be commended for winning over the Arizona front office and convincing them he was the guy and not Leinart and he has rewarded them for their decision.

[jmood88]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

But what quarterback has ever carried his team without other offensive weapons? I can't think of anyone.

I never said that quarterbacks have to play with scrubs to be Hall of Famers but when you have a guy that was in the best possible position then when he leaves he plays horrible, I don't think that's Hall of Fame caliber.

[jmood88]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

And for the sake of discussion, Warner's quarterback ratings from 2004 (first year with the Giants) to now:

86.5
85.8
89.3
89.8
96.9

He was never benched for ineffectiveness. He was benched because of injury and politics. Both franchises spent a lot of money on first round draft picks at quarterback and owners don't like it when those big ticket players sit on the bench. Warner should be commended for winning over the Arizona front office and convincing them he was the guy and not Leinart and he has rewarded them for their decision.

Why do you think they spent money drafting quarterbacks? If he was killing everyone in practice and during games you would think that teams would be comfortable with him around. The fact that both teams he went to after the Rams spent first round picks on quarterbacks rather than picking a quarterback in a lower round says alot about how much confidence they had in his ability.

From 2004 to now his touchdowns and interceptions:
6/4
11/9
6/5
27/17
30/14

Now he picked things up the past couple years but what was going on before that? His stats weren't all that great, even if you want to give him a pass for injuries.

[hamannator]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

Wasn't Holt a rookie in '98? That would mean by the time that Bulger took over in 2003, he'd only been in the league 5 years. If that's not prime, I don't know what is. And Bruce was still playing at a high level. Marshall Faulk, I'll agree, wasn't the same 'back, but Jackson provides just as much offense, as evident by the season where he caught nearly 100 passes.

[SPTO]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

Because his offensive line is horrible and he's dealing with former stars. He isn't playing with Issac Bruce, Orlando Pace,Torry Holt, and Marshall Faulk in their prime. He has Stephen Jackson and that's it.

Let's not play the revisionist history card here, Bulger's first 4 years as STL's starting QB he had Faulk (who was still productive) Holt, Bruce, a couple other dependable WRs and a young Stephen Jackson.

The Rams still had a pretty good offense though not nearly as great as it used to be but it wasn't like everyone was living on past glories.

[hamannator]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

Why do you think they spent money drafting quarterbacks? If he was killing everyone in practice and during games you would think that teams would be comfortable with him around. The fact that both teams he went to after the Rams spent first round picks on quarterbacks rather than picking a quarterback in a lower round says alot about how much confidence they had in his ability.

They drafted quarterbacks for the future. Warner, when he got to New York in 2004, was 33. He wouldn't be getting any younger, and I suppose they were looking for a long time solution at the position. I imagine Kurt was brought in to help them win then, and all the while he'd help Eli develop. Obviously, injuries didn't allow that plan to play out, but now that's happening in Arizona. Leinert will benefeit from sitting beneath Warner on the depth chart for a few years.

[Misfit]

Re: Kurt Warner, Hall of Fame?

Why do you think they spent money drafting quarterbacks? If he was killing everyone in practice and during games you would think that teams would be comfortable with him around. The fact that both teams he went to after the Rams spent first round picks on quarterbacks rather than picking a quarterback in a lower round says alot about how much confidence they had in his ability.

What are you talking about? In both Arizona and NY the pick was made before he arrived. Both franchises hoped he could serve as a mentor when they brought him in. St. Louis let him go when he couldn't stay on the field and Bulger put up good numbers in his place. Bulger was drafted late in the 2000 draft. He was never intended to be a franchise guy but the Rams were able to capture lightening in a bottle and chose to go with the hot hand. And with similar offensive talent around Bulger the Rams have never been able to regain the success they had with Warner while Warner had continued to produce when healthy and has lead a moribund franchise to its first Superbowl.