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  • jWILL253
    You know why I'm here...
    • Jun 2008
    • 1611

    #18376
    Re: NFL Off Topic

    Originally posted by ProfessaPackMan
    Why shouldn't Cam be MVP and what makes Carson Palmer more valuable than him while taking everything they have both done(whether it's in their control or not)into consideration?
    Well, if you HAVE to give the award to a QB, there are a number of signal callers outperforming Cam: Carlson Palmer, Aaron Rodgers, Blake Bortles, Phillip Rivers, Russell Wilson, Andy Dalton, Tom Brady. All those QB's are performing better and more efficiently than Cam, and it really isn't close. QB rating, ESPN QBR, completion percentage, TD:INT, yards per attempt, etc... name the metric, and the only one Cam would lead in is total TD's (28 passing TD's, 7 rushing TD's). In fact, other than his passing TD count, Cam isn't performing any better than he has in his past 4 seasons. He's making big plays when he needs to, but statistically, he's not MVP material.

    In fact, the same caveats people throw at Wilson, are the exact caveats Cam is benefiting from and more: a Top 5 defense and a baby-soft schedule within a cotton-soft division. The Panthers strength of schedule was ranked 27th coming into the season. And yet, 6 of those games were decided by less than 10 points, mostly against inferior opponents. The only major wins they have are against the Seahawks and Packers, both of which were under 10 points. And in all of their victories, Cam has only had a completion percentage over 60% in just five games. For comparison, Wilson had a completion percentage under 60% only ONCE (Cardinals) and for the season, he's near 70%. Cam is at 59.4% on the season.

    And lastly, on an undefeated team, you'd think that there would be more candidates for the award. Luke Kuechly, Josh Norman, etc... Hell, Ron Rivera would win MVP if coaches could win it. But, we really want to give the QB automatically, especially one who hasn't even been performing all that well compared not only to his own peers at the position, but hasn't even outperformed his rookie season?



    Originally posted by N51_rob
    Watt, this year over Cam this year? Makes literally no sense, had you said Kuchely it would've at least been an interesting conversation.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Explain to me how giving the best defensive player in all levels of football the MVP award makes no sense.
    Last edited by jWILL253; 12-19-2015, 08:15 PM.
    jWILL

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    • Jr.
      Playgirl Coverboy
      • Feb 2003
      • 19171

      #18377
      Re: NFL Off Topic

      If you're only looking at stats side by side, Cam will never win a MVP. Luckily, the actual voters know that traditional stats aren't the only measure of a player's impact.
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      • jWILL253
        You know why I'm here...
        • Jun 2008
        • 1611

        #18378
        Re: NFL Off Topic

        Originally posted by Jr.
        If you're only looking at stats side by side, Cam will never win a MVP. Luckily, the actual voters know that traditional stats aren't the only measure of a player's impact.
        Even if you want to pull the "eye test" nonsense, there are still plenty of players - not just at the QB positron - who are performing better than Cam is.

        He's gonna win the award, but only by proxy of being the star #1 overall pick QB of an undefeated team.
        jWILL

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        • The_Wise_One
          Why Not Us?
          • Jan 2011
          • 2633

          #18379
          NFL Off Topic

          In my eyes, Cam had the biggest impact of any player in the NFL this season. Take him off the Panthers and they may not be a .500 team. They also lost arguably their best playmaker in the offseason and are still undefeated.
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          • Jr.
            Playgirl Coverboy
            • Feb 2003
            • 19171

            #18380
            Re: NFL Off Topic

            Originally posted by jWILL253
            Even if you want to pull the "eye test" nonsense, there are still plenty of players - not just at the QB positron - who are performing better than Cam is.

            He's gonna win the award, but only by proxy of being the star #1 overall pick QB of an undefeated team.
            Nah I'm talking about advanced stats. But the eye test does help. He throws downfield more than almost any other QB. The threat of him running literally opens up everything in the offense.

            I can only imagine if Cam had the best slot WR in football, his numbers would be a little better. Let's not forget that Ted Ginn, alone, has dropped 5 sure TDs this year.

            Cam isn't without his faults, but I think there are only 2 other QBs that could do what he's done with this offensive talent. The Panthers are a .500 team, at best, without Cam.
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            • SPTO
              binging
              • Feb 2003
              • 68046

              #18381
              Re: NFL Off Topic

              Originally posted by The_Wise_One
              In my eyes, Cam had the biggest impact of any player in the NFL this season. Take him off the Panthers and they may not be a .500 team. They also lost arguably their best playmaker in the offseason and are still undefeated.
              This is spot on, I also point to the fact that Cam doesn't exactly have the greatest WR corps in the league but he makes it work for him. He has grown exceptionally as a leader IMO as well. I honestly think 10 years from now we'll point back to that car crash as the turning point for him as he's grown up tremendously since that incident.
              Member of the Official OS Bills Backers Club

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              • N51_rob
                Faceuary!
                • Jul 2003
                • 14805

                #18382
                Re: NFL Off Topic

                Originally posted by jWILL253

                Explain to me how giving the best defensive player in all levels of football the MVP award makes no sense.

                Because I watch more than one team and as such the visual impact of each on their teams success (if you want to call what Houston is doing this year success) is clearly evident.

                By the way saying that someone is the best x as a justification for the MVP is just silly and I'd like to think you know better.


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                • ggsimmonds
                  Hall Of Fame
                  • Jan 2009
                  • 11235

                  #18383
                  Re: NFL Off Topic

                  Originally posted by Jr.
                  Nah I'm talking about advanced stats. But the eye test does help. He throws downfield more than almost any other QB. The threat of him running literally opens up everything in the offense.

                  I can only imagine if Cam had the best slot WR in football, his numbers would be a little better. Let's not forget that Ted Ginn, alone, has dropped 5 sure TDs this year.

                  Cam isn't without his faults, but I think there are only 2 other QBs that could do what he's done with this offensive talent. The Panthers are a .500 team, at best, without Cam.
                  Which advanced stats?

                  I wouldn't object to Cam winning the MVP, but if I was a voter I would vote someone else.

                  It is something we have to learn to live with. The QB for the year's top team will always be the favorite to win MVP.

                  I'm not convinced that without Cam the Panthers would be a .500 team. Their defense is nasty and the NFC South has been a weak division.

                  Good jab on the slot receiver comment though.

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                  • jWILL253
                    You know why I'm here...
                    • Jun 2008
                    • 1611

                    #18384
                    Re: NFL Off Topic

                    Originally posted by N51_rob
                    Because I watch more than one team and as such the visual impact of each on their teams success (if you want to call what Houston is doing this year success) is clearly evident.
                    So, you're saying that JJ Watt has had no impact on whatever team success they've had?
                    jWILL

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                    • Jr.
                      Playgirl Coverboy
                      • Feb 2003
                      • 19171

                      #18385
                      Re: NFL Off Topic

                      Originally posted by ggsimmonds
                      Which advanced stats?

                      I wouldn't object to Cam winning the MVP, but if I was a voter I would vote someone else.

                      It is something we have to learn to live with. The QB for the year's top team will always be the favorite to win MVP.

                      I'm not convinced that without Cam the Panthers would be a .500 team. Their defense is nasty and the NFC South has been a weak division.

                      Good jab on the slot receiver comment though.
                      Offensive metrics that combine passing with running have Cam in the top 10 when I read about 2-3 weeks ago. He had the highest QBR on "deep" passes (18+ yards as defined by the NFL). Those numbers could have changed since I read them.
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                      • ggsimmonds
                        Hall Of Fame
                        • Jan 2009
                        • 11235

                        #18386
                        Re: NFL Off Topic

                        Originally posted by jWILL253
                        So, you're saying that JJ Watt has had no impact on whatever team success they've had?
                        Come on man, I am on your side (surprised even myself) but he did not say that, not even close.

                        He said that Watt's impact on his team is not close to being the same as the impact of a QB.

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                        • jWILL253
                          You know why I'm here...
                          • Jun 2008
                          • 1611

                          #18387
                          Re: NFL Off Topic

                          Originally posted by ggsimmonds
                          Come on man, I am on your side (surprised even myself) but he did not say that, not even close.

                          He said that Watt's impact on his team is not close to being the same as the impact of a QB.
                          I think we need to reevaluate this.

                          The award is called "Most Valuable Player".

                          If you're gonna argue impact, you can't just limit it to the QB position.
                          jWILL

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                          • ggsimmonds
                            Hall Of Fame
                            • Jan 2009
                            • 11235

                            #18388
                            Re: NFL Off Topic

                            Originally posted by Jr.
                            Offensive metrics that combine passing with running have Cam in the top 10 when I read about 2-3 weeks ago. He had the highest QBR on "deep" passes (18+ yards as defined by the NFL). Those numbers could have changed since I read them.
                            So then you are mostly relying on the eye test lol.

                            Cam has had an excellent year, but if the best the stats say is that he is top 10 among QBs after combining run and pass then the stats aren't helping you in the MVP discussion.

                            You said Cam throws deep more than any other QB, is that by percentage of passes or total attempts? Or was it an educated assumption?

                            Like I said though, when Cam gets the award I'm not going to protest in the streets, but I also don't think it should be as clear as the votes will appear.

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                            • NDAlum
                              ND
                              • Jun 2010
                              • 11453

                              #18389
                              Re: NFL Off Topic

                              They're 13-0. He's having a great season with his best WR out for the year and an OL that was viewed as terrible coming into the season. It's an award for QB's & HB's. They're going to win 99% of the time.

                              He's going to win. I hope he does so I don't have to hear Warren Moon...
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                              • redsox4evur
                                Hall Of Fame
                                • Jul 2013
                                • 18169

                                #18390
                                Re: NFL Off Topic

                                My two would be Brady and Cam. With Palmer as a 3rd. And I would give the award to Cam. He has done it with little to no good WR's. Only above average pass catcher on that team is Olsen.
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