MVP Discussion Thread

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: MVP Discussion Thread

Without him, that Vikings team would be a 3 win team, at best.

The problem and I guess you can consider a major flaw in this argument is that they were a 3 win team last year with him in all but 1 game. Not to mention, much of the roster is the same as it was last year and Ponder still looking like a Rookie QB in many games this year(although I'd lay blame on the lack of WR threats they have than anything), like he did last year.

The other argument that I don't necessarily agree with is the "other pieces" argument for Peyton. Remember, it was just a year ago with most people thought Demaryus Thomas dipped his hands in Oil each game because of the drops issue(or in some cases drops at the worst times), nobody really thought much of Eric Decker, people thought Willis McGahee was a past his prime, over the hill back and Knowshon Moreno was on his way to bust status.

They were basically being labeled as "meh" guys and not really being considered as guys who you could win with going forward but a year later, some of them are overachieving like crap all of a sudden?

basically going 1 on 11 every game

My extreme hyperbole senses are tingling.

i think this discussion has begun to exemplify how hard it is to compare different positions, especially when one of them is quarterback

Basically.

[gopher_guy]

Re: MVP Discussion Thread

When Peterson went down last year Gerhart had two good games and the Vikings went 1-1.

Maybe it's because I'm used to watching AP, but I wouldn't call 67 yards and no TD's a good game :wink:

[tripwire]

Re: MVP Discussion Thread

It's a tough pick for sure. I know people are tired of hearing about it, but AP really does not have the support around him when compared to the QB's who are also in the running, and that has to factor into the discussion. The only QB that comes close is Rodgers, who has had to play with a beat up receiving corps, and a below average oline. Problem in choosing Rodgers is that aside from QB rating, he doesn't lead any of his peers in any major stat.

Meanwhile, Peterson has 433 yards more rushing than the next, his average/run is insane, and his long runs of 20+ equals 28, with the next best being 15.

You have a dominant rushing performance vs 3 QB's who just about cancel each other out statistically IMO. I give the edge to AP due to all the factors involved.

[Rocky]

Re: MVP Discussion Thread

The main argument for Peyton seems to be wins and how well his team is playing. So I think it's fair to mention that his defense is top 5 in the league in nearly every category or that Tim Tebow led the offense to a playoff win last year. If Peyton was head and shoulders above every other QB this season, I might not make that argument.

[mestevo]

The main argument for Peyton seems to be wins and how well his team is playing. So I think it's fair to mention that his defense is top 5 in the league in nearly every category or that Tim Tebow led the offense to a playoff win last year. If Peyton was head and shoulders above every other QB this season, I might not make that argument.

You don't have to lead every category at your position when you don't have to have your foot on the gas all game, every game. An effective offense also pays dividends for your defense.

If it was just wins + QB then we'd be talking about Schaub too.


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[JODYE]

Re: MVP Discussion Thread

My extreme hyperbole senses are tingling.

Then I'll let you describe what it's like having no other playmakers on offense, and a QB thats definition of having a good game is throwing for 150 yards.

Last year was a perfect example. AP was having a sub par year, and missed 4 games and they struggle to win 3 games.

Comes back, has his best year and they are sitting at 8 with 2 games to play, while their pass offense has been nothing short of anemic, Christian Ponder has regressed significantly and their only other playmaker has been out the last 5 1/2 games.

Again, couple that with the fact his rushing numbers are insane and he's on pace to break one of the longest standing records in NFL History, but apparently that's not considered valuable because he "doesn't touch the ball every play"?

Again, as it's been reiterated, the only thing Manning has in his favor is wins. I have yet to hear anyone provide a statistical argument to support his case of him being the most valuable player to his team, let alone the best QB, other than, he touches the ball the most, and people fear them more, while ignoring that their defense is one of the best in the league and they are rushing for over 110 yards a game, and that they went 7-4 with probably the worst starting QB in the league last year.

Also, I think saying people thought Decker and McGahee were meh before Manning got there is quite the stretch. In fact it was widely thought that Decker was making Tebow look way better than he was, and McGahee was coming off his best season since 2007 and averaging near 5 YPC.

You really think Manning would have went there in the twilight of his career, if he didn't think they had the pieces to make a Super Bowl run?

[Kaiser Wilhelm]

Re: MVP Discussion Thread

If Adrian Peterson gets the record, AP.
If the Vikings make the playoffs, AP.

If neither of those happen, and Calvin Johnson gets the record, Calvin Johnson. I'm sick of MVP being the best QB award. No quarterbacks are really doing anything truly spectacular this year on their stats or impact alone. Hell, I'd be okay is JJ Watt (19.5 sacks, 3FF, 2FR, 74 total tackles and 15 passes defended) got the award. Point being, no quarterback deserves it this year. No quarterback has had THAT significant of a season compared to these guys who are anchoring teams.

Manning is having a great season, all things considered, but not greater than Adrian Peterson. Peterson is in the lead for MVP. I mean, the guy is about to break a long standing record, and is the only reason this team is in contention.

Calvin Johnson is also about to break a long standing record as the bright spot on a bad team. Most Valuable Player is an honor that should go beyond just the quarterback.

Peterson, Watt and C.Johnson all make more compelling cases than Manning or any other quarterback.

[TRC]

Re: MVP Discussion Thread

Well, unfortunately, the Vikings can't have 11 APs on the field at the same time, so that is a knock, and is the biggest flaw in an individual award in a game that requires other players playing well to help you succeed. Biggest beneficiaries obviously being the QB, because they "touch the ball the most".

That's the thing though, AP doesn't have "those other guys" to rely on. He doesn't have another go to player on his team to take pressure off of him. He is THE ONLY guy.

Have you watched any Vikings games? Honestly? Have you seen how horrendous their pass offense is, or how inept Christian Ponder is as a QB? Painful would be a generous term to describe it.

I'm not marginalizing anything, and in fact the only thing Manning has in his case for the MVP is his team's record. If anything, there has been a drastic overstatement of the incredible god like season Manning has put together, which some how finds him not leading in any category that measures QB play. So I guess another question should be posed and that is should you even be in the talks for MVP if you're not even having the best year at your position?

To ignore the pieces that Denver already had in place before Manning even got there, and to imply that he had to teach himself all these new tricks to fit in with a Denver offense, which is essentially the exact offense they ran in Indianapolis is misinformed and shortsighted.

This statement, works against you, because it's another testament to how good that team and more specifically that defense was, before Manning got there.

Tebow was THAT bad, and the Broncos D somehow still looked THAT good.



And you know that AP doesn't put in extra work? When he's widely regarded as the hardest working player in the league. Okay.

That is a porous argument and doesn't hold any weight in this discussion.

Whatever... AP is the hardest working player in the league.

AP elevates the play of the o-line, Christian Ponder, and the receivers. MVP.

How do you define Offensive Player of the Year then? And how does it differ from MVP? Just curious.

Manning considered many things when deciding which team he was going to sign with. Yes... he did consider weather, players, and coaches. Then why not San Francisco? SF was considered to be this year's favorite for the SB. I think the biggest reason why he chose Denver was Elway. Elway is the only one in the head office that understands Manning's plight to win a SB in the "twilight of his career."

[kehlis]

The main argument for Peyton seems to be wins and how well his team is playing. So I think it's fair to mention that his defense is top 5 in the league in nearly every category or that Tim Tebow led the offense to a playoff win last year. If Peyton was head and shoulders above every other QB this season, I might not make that argument.

Is it unfair or wrong to say the most valuable player is someone leading a team that is doing well?

[kehlis]

Re: MVP Discussion Thread

Again, as it's been reiterated, the only thing Manning has in his favor is wins. I have yet to hear anyone provide a statistical argument to support his case of him being the most valuable player to his team, let alone the best QB, other than, he touches the ball the most, and people fear them more, while ignoring that their defense is one of the best in the league and they are rushing for over 110 yards a game, and that they went 7-4 with probably the worst starting QB in the league last year.

I know you keep reiterating the only thing Manning has in his favor is wins, and I've provided other things he's done that's proved to make him valuable in area's stats can't measure.

Offensive player of the year is about stats, MVP isn't just about stats.

Yes, their defense is one of the better defenses in the league this year. And you know why? It's because their offense isnt having three and outs for half of the game.

This defense was 20th last year in total defense. Unless you think Derek Wolfe, and Keith Brooking have made the difference in making a top defense you are ignoring the fact that the defense is better because they aren't spending the entire game on the field.

That is because the Broncos have gone from a team that couldn't stay on the field to a team that regularly wins the TOP and first down battle. That is because of the Manning lead offense.

You've argued that Manning is running the same offense he ran in Indy and you're right. Guess who taught that to them? It wasn't Stokley and it certainly wasn't McCoy. Are you going to take credit away from Manning for teaching a team a brand new offense than ran a triple option last year with Tebow????

Also, I think saying people thought Decker and McGahee were meh before Manning got there is quite the stretch. In fact it was widely thought that Decker was making Tebow look way better than he was, and McGahee was coming off his best season since 2007 and averaging near 5 YPC.

I agree with this, BUT, I don't think it should have a bearing on this discussion.

[N51_rob]

Re: MVP Discussion Thread

For me it's Peterson. W/o Harvin, he is seeing 9 in the box just about every play. Peyton Manning gets to change the play based on what he see from the defense. 2 safeties deep, audible to a run. Single high safety audible to a pass. Its much more complicated than that. But the past two weeks I've been watching the All-22 and Peyton is being Peyton. He is doing what he always does, which IMO puts him squarely in the conversation for MVP and I wouldn't be mad if he won. That said, what Peterson is doing is just insane. To be a 2,000 yard back in a passing league where the rules favor throwing the ball over running it....Peterson is my MVP, and to me its not even close.

That said, whoever win it, will have earned it.

[Rocky]

Re: MVP Discussion Thread

Is it unfair or wrong to say the most valuable player is someone leading a team that is doing well?

No, but I don't think it should be the only argument....especially when other players in the discussion are doing similar if not more impressive things and still leading there team to wins.

[Candyman5]

I see some things in this thread I must post:

Some said that Vikings have a good o line for Peterson. Same thing can be said for broncos and manning.

A lot of people say about peyton learning a new system then complain about the tebow last year comments saying punishing a team because of the weapons built around him. Isn't the argument about peyton learning a new system the same thing? Punishing AD for being on the Vikings still?

Just my 2 cents.

[TheMatrix31]

Re: MVP Discussion Thread

I think it's interesting that every year, in every sport, the MVP discussion catches so much attention and all these arguments.

I mean, I don't know, I feel like this whole argument over MVP is ALWAYS overblown.

I'd be cool with either of the main guys winning.

[JODYE]

Re: MVP Discussion Thread

I know you keep reiterating the only thing Manning has in his favor is wins, and I've provided other things he's done that's proved to make him valuable in area's stats can't measure.

Offensive player of the year is about stats, MVP isn't just about stats.

Yes, their defense is one of the better defenses in the league this year. And you know why? It's because their offense isnt having three and outs for half of the game.

This defense was 20th last year in total defense. Unless you think Derek Wolfe, and Keith Brooking have made the difference in making a top defense you are ignoring the fact that the defense is better because they aren't spending the entire game on the field.

That is because the Broncos have gone from a team that couldn't stay on the field to a team that regularly wins the TOP and first down battle. That is because of the Manning lead offense.

You've argued that Manning is running the same offense he ran in Indy and you're right. Guess who taught that to them? It wasn't Stokley and it certainly wasn't McCoy. Are you going to take credit away from Manning for teaching a team a brand new offense than ran a triple option last year with Tebow????



I agree with this, BUT, I don't think it should have a bearing on this discussion.

But it's not like we didn't realize this last year and it's not some huge revelation that a good QB will make your defense better.

Anyone that watched any Broncos games knew they were being stretched thin. Between Tebow and Orton, the defense barely left the field. The personnel was already in place.

If anything you could argue that an elite running back will actually benefit the defense more.

Again, my goal is not to argue that Manning isn't valuable, because only an idiot would think that, but this year to think that he has been more valuable to the Broncos when you take into consideration everything he has in his favor, moreso than Peterson, with literally EVERYTHING going against him, I think that would be a mistake. And you can ignore stats if you want to. Just look at each players situation right now, and you can tell me which one would be more likely to succeed. Guarantee you won't pick Peterson.