Official Denver Broncos Thread

[Jonsco28]

Re: Official Denver Broncos Thread

2) Orton was the QB who shined under pressure and marched the offense down the field.

Against the second team defense.

[Jonsco28]

Re: Official Denver Broncos Thread

Jonsco28, that's a terrible point of view, and it's very short-sighted. If the Broncos had a solid defense the last two years, and had a decent running game, and still lost, I'd look to Orton. The fact of the matter is, we were often playing from behind, and we relied HEAVILY on the pass. Peyton Manning would've failed in that situation. It doesn't take long for defenses to figure out you can't run the ball and start looking for passes. The result? The front seven pins their ears back and attacks the QB.

You may not agree with me, but to say my point of view is terrible and short sighted is somewhat arrogant on your part. If you believe Orton can get it done, great. I've seen enough to have a strong opinion that he can't. If there are two minutes left in the game and Denver needs to go 80 yards to tie or win it, do you have confidence that he'll get it done? I sure don't.

There were several games last year where the defense played well enough to win, and Orton had a shot to get it done and couldn't (Jacksonville, SF, IND, NYJ, and KC at KC come to mind). Yes, I said Indy. They were in that game in the fourth quarter and Orton couldn't put a drive together when it mattered. And yes, they got screwed against the Jets, but how did it end? Denver was in Jet territory, third down, and Orton fumbled the snap. Game over.

It's not all Orton's fault, but he does play a part... a big part. He's the quarterback and I don't believe he can actually carry the team when they really need it. He was absolutely awful in clutch situations, especially on third down. Converting those third downs keeps the defense off the field. There is no denying that Orton is great between the 20's, but he is lacking when it matters most.

You mentioned that they are playing from behind. Yeah...because they started slow on offense more often than not. Blame a lot of this on McDaniels if you want, but Orton is not a playmaker.

[Broncos86]

Re: Official Denver Broncos Thread

First depth chart is released. No real surprises.

http://www.denverbroncos.com/team/depth-chart.html

[wwharton]

Re: Official Denver Broncos Thread

You may not agree with me, but to say my point of view is terrible and short sighted is somewhat arrogant on your part. If you believe Orton can get it done, great. I've seen enough to have a strong opinion that he can't. If there are two minutes left in the game and Denver needs to go 80 yards to tie or win it, do you have confidence that he'll get it done? I sure don't.

There were several games last year where the defense played well enough to win, and Orton had a shot to get it done and couldn't (Jacksonville, SF, IND, NYJ, and KC at KC come to mind). Yes, I said Indy. They were in that game in the fourth quarter and Orton couldn't put a drive together when it mattered. And yes, they got screwed against the Jets, but how did it end? Denver was in Jet territory, third down, and Orton fumbled the snap. Game over.

It's not all Orton's fault, but he does play a part... a big part. He's the quarterback and I don't believe he can actually carry the team when they really need it. He was absolutely awful in clutch situations, especially on third down. Converting those third downs keeps the defense off the field. There is no denying that Orton is great between the 20's, but he is lacking when it matters most.

You mentioned that they are playing from behind. Yeah...because they started slow on offense more often than not. Blame a lot of this on McDaniels if you want, but Orton is not a playmaker.

Arguably the best player on the entire team missed the whole season. I personally don't see any reason to nitpick in a situation like that. The Defense fell off big time and losing a potential all pro on that side of the ball had a lot to do with it. You can blame Orton for not going above his level to make up for the loss, but the bottom line is what Orton is capable of should be good enough for a team with a solid running game and good defense, and the 2011 version of the Broncos (as they are healthy right now) is a better fit for Orton's skills.

And I don't think you can ignore someone that's seen it first hand this year, who's saying Tebow's not ready. When he was drafted, I doubt any of us felt he would be ready by now. I know I didn't.

[Jonsco28]

Re: Official Denver Broncos Thread

I don't doubt for one minute that Tebow isn't ready...today. Maybe he never will be. I never said he should start this year. I do want to see what he has to offer and that will happen in the preseason. Even with that, I don't believe his performance in the upcoming preason games will define him as a player. He'll progress. Tebow is a project and there are going to be growing pains that go along with that. People will be quick to throw dirt on him. He's probably one of the most polarizing players ever, and I hope like hell he succeeds. I would love to see the Broncos become relevant again with Tebow at the helm. Tebow was hurt by the lock-out. He's behind, which is no surprise.

I think Orton is in a tough spot. He has a tough road ahead of him, because if he falters even a little bit, the fans will be all over him. He will be the opening day starter, but he has to beat Oakland and avenge last year's route or things are going to get ugly quick.

I still don't believe Orton is Denver's long term solution. Truth is, though, I don't really care who the quarterback is...I am just tired of all the losing. The last five years have been tough, and it's gotten worse every year.

[Broncos86]

Re: Official Denver Broncos Thread

Orton can certainly be a long-term solution (hear me out). Heck, Plummer could've been it, Cutler could've been it, etc. In Colorado, we're in love with our QB position because of John Elway. But the reality is, we haven't been successful because we haven't had a defense that has been worthy. Mike Shanahan wasn't fired because of his offense, it was because he couldn't fix the defense. When you're scoring 35 points a game and losing, there's an issue.

This is why McDaniels was such a mistake. We didn't need another young offensive mind. We needed someone who could cultivate a tough, strong defense and continue the tradition of running the ball in Denver. That's John Fox.

So for Orton, all he has to do is be smart and accurate. Give Orton a running game and a defense, and he'll succeed. Don't forget, if Orton had finished the season, he would've tallied over 4,400 yards. John Elway finished with over 4,000 yards just once. Of course, Elway was The Duke for a reason, and carried the Broncos. But Orton doesn't have to be The Duke, he just has to be Kyle Orton. If the Broncos get the running game in gear, the defense is even just the 15th ranked defense, and Orton comes up with a 3800 yard season with an 88 QB rating, we're going to make the playoffs.

What are the knocks on Orton?

"He can't handle pressure"

Yeah, not a lot of QBs are going to do well when the running game is ranked 26th in the league and your defense is ranked 32nd. The opposing defensive line goes into QB pass rush mode. And STILL, despite that, Orton was a master at play-action. if the defense doesn't respect the run, they're going to go for the QB all day long.

"He's not a winner"

With the aforementioned, neither would most QBs. Unless you're God or John Elway, you're pretty much screwed.

"His potential is reached"

BS. He came into the Bears organization from Purdue. He had to deal with a system and coach that wasn't going to nurture a QB. Lovie Smith is no QB coach. He believes in running the ball and defense. He had no interest in developing QBs. Once Orton got into a system that actually wanted to develop him as a QB, it's not shocking that Orton excelled.

Kyle Orton may never be a "great" quarterback, but I think he can be a darn good quarterback. When Orton came here, I didn't like him and I wanted Chris Simms to start. In madden, I always traded Orton. But I've really come around on him, and he's showed me class, perseverance, and grit. He throws the ball well and he's making great reads. The entire Broncos offense supports him and accepts him. Right now, I'm all aboard for Kyle Orton.

[Jonsco28]

Re: Official Denver Broncos Thread

Valid points, and I totally agree with you on the defense. I believe Shanahan (and Cutler) would still be here if he put more emphasis on the defense. His solution was always to bring in over-priced verterans who were past their prime in hopes that things would work out. These were just bandaids, and the defense continually eroded. Shanny missed on a lot of defensive draft picks and it really hurt. I think the turning point for the franchise was in 2008, when they were 8-5 and only needed one more win to clinch the division and get into the playoffs. They lost to Buffalo at home, and I believe that set everything in motion...Shanny getting fired, the Cutler fiasco, etc....

So here we are. I know you think I'm an Orton basher / *****, but I'm really not. I am a Bronco fan through and through. I just get the feeling that the Broncos are in neutral while this whole thing plays out. I get why you think that Orton could be a long term solution, but I just don't see it happening. You brought up Plummer. He had a great record as a starting QB for Denver, but he had problems making plays when it mattered just like Orton does. Plummer played great with the lead, and back then Denver was still jumping on teams quickly. Where Plummer had a hard time was making plays to bring Denver back. I see that same trait in Orton. Orton plays great with the lead, not so much when behind...especially on the road.

Since Orton's contract is up at the end of the season, I just don't see him coming back. You are right about how Orton has handled this...much better than some other QB did a couple of years ago. It bothers me that Orton has no interest in helping Tebow. However, I can't say that I blame him for that. Tebow is trying to take his job, and Orton just came from a situation in Chicago where he felt like he undeservedly got the shaft (for the record, I'd choose Orton over Grossman any day).

Orton is the right choice for winning a few more games this season, but will that really matter? Personally, I'd rather see Tebow start, go through the growing pains (while showing signs of improvement), and lead them to a 6-10 record than see Orton guide them to a meaningless 8-8 season. I say that because I don't see everything you see in Orton. To me, I don't care how many yards he throws for if they don't equate to points and more importantly, wins. The flip side is maybe Tebow isn't the guy, but at least you have some answers at at the end of the season.

If you are in the Orton camp and you believe he can be a franchise quarterback, which it sounds like you do, than this is the only move. Maybe in the end it's the smartest thing to do, but if things start to go south, I hope they don't continue with Orton and they get Tebow in there to see what happens.

Preseason will be fun to watch this year. Tebow will see a lot of time, and maybe some questions will be answered. Maybe Tebow will look lost (like Chris Simms a couple years ago) and it will be painfully obvious that Orton is the right choice.

I think you may have misinterpreted one of my previous posts when I stated that it bothered me about people being so quick to judge Denver's Qb situation based on a scrimmage or practice. That wasn't directed at your comment you made coming out of the stadium following the scrimmage, but to the media hype in general. Nobody in their right mind could think that Tebow would be up to the same speed as Orton this early in camp, and I think the media tend to pile on Tebow at any possible chance. It seems like everyone is bailing on Tebow following a few practices and the comments Hoge made. Tebow is raw, but I believe he'll improve greatly.

If Orton is the guy (which he will be...for now), I will support him and the Broncos. My personal opinion is that he isn't the long term solution for Denver.

[Broncos86]

Re: Official Denver Broncos Thread

If Orton leads the Broncos to 8 - 8, that's hardly meaningless. Heck, the Seahawks got in last year with 7 - 9! Moreover, it's a massive swing. Any NFL analyst would call 8 - 8 a successful season for Coach Fox. It's unfair to place everything on the QB, and it'd be short-sighted to suggest the QB can fix everything.

For example: if you have no running game and 3rd and 1 plagues you (like it plagued the Broncos the past several years), what's going to happen when you get to the red zone? And how many drives did we witness die because we couldn't pick up 3rd and 1 and the COACHES chose to run the ball? And now we're in the red zone, the secondary has a limited field to cover, and they know you can't run the ball. You have two choices: run the ball anyways, or pass it. Of course, we passed it. And in that situation, Orton still had 20 touchdown passes to 9 INTs total. Are we honestly going to blame Orton because the running backs couldn't move the line? Or because the offensive line couldn't hold their blocks? Or because the offensive blocking scheme was swiss cheese to begin with? Or because TWO rookies started on the offensive line?

Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. Some football IQ tells us that the QB is only in control of so much. And Orton's play DID turn into points. Heck, they were our ONLY points. I also don't understand the sentiment of being in neutral. Did Aaron Rodgers suffer from sitting on the bench behind Brett Favre? Did it hurt Philip Rivers? If Orton isn't in the Broncos long-term plans, that's whatever. But Tebow can watch Orton and learn how the pro game works. Watch how Orton handles audibles, break down film of Orton making reads. Study and learn! Putting Tebow in now will, IMO, wreck the kid. And if Orton shines this year, then you DO have your franchise QB. If Orton is okay, then you've helped cultivate Tebow into a better passer.

Tebow will not survive if he tries to play like he did in college. He survived all of three preseason games last year before getting bruised ribs. Michael Vick is in the same boat. You can't let guys like Ray Lewis pound you into the turf. You won't last, I don't care how big you are. These defenses live to crush QBs, and even moreso now that the new rules protect QBs.

[Jonsco28]

Re: Official Denver Broncos Thread

I don't believe 8-8 is that big of a swing simply because I don't believe Denver is as bad as their 4-12 record. McDaniels lost that team. I think 8-8 is meaningless in the sense that you don't really know anymore than you do now. That's important only because this is the last year of Orton's contract, and they will have to make a decision. If Orton stays, Tebow will most likely leave, and vice-versa. I'd hate to see that decision made without all the information. I don't know that you get that information without seeing how Tebow plays when the lights are on.

I disagree that putting Tebow in there would wreck him. He didn't look lost in those last three games. Yes, he made some rookie mistakes. All rookies do that. Overall, I thought he played rather well; he's a gamer. He breathed life into that team and the fans. Plus, he'll only get better.

I get everything you've said about Orton. If he can resurrect this team and play at a consistent level, great. Unfortunately for him, I think Invesco will become a pretty hostile place for him if he falters even a little bit. Fair or not, it's going to happen.

In that 'other' thread, you said something that is 100% correct. Fox would have lost the locker room if he started Tebow and he was not the clear-cut starter. True. They kind of painted themselves into a corner, and Orton is the only option. I just hope they know when to give Tebow a chance should Orton prove to be just 'Ortonary'.

[Broncos86]

Re: Official Denver Broncos Thread

I don't believe 8-8 is that big of a swing simply because I don't believe Denver is as bad as their 4-12 record. McDaniels lost that team. I think 8-8 is meaningless in the sense that you don't really know anymore than you do now. That's important only because this is the last year of Orton's contract, and they will have to make a decision. If Orton stays, Tebow will most likely leave, and vice-versa. I'd hate to see that decision made without all the information. I don't know that you get that information without seeing how Tebow plays when the lights are on.

That's a lot of conjecture. Nobody makes the playoffs because "well, we were 7- 9 but we were REALLY 10 - 6." No you weren't. You were 7 - 9. The Broncos were 4 - 12. I DO agree that talent is there and that, if coached properly, the same team can shine. But why does this get to apply to certain players and not others? The scheme was terrible. McDaniels didn't just lose the team, his scheme was piss-poor for the Broncos. He tried to force the "Patriot Way" upon Denver. The result is the worst defense in the league, one of the worst running games in the league, and a 4-12 record.

I disagree that putting Tebow in there would wreck him. He didn't look lost in those last three games. Yes, he made some rookie mistakes. All rookies do that. Overall, I thought he played rather well; he's a gamer. He breathed life into that team and the fans. Plus, he'll only get better.

Tim Tebow has a LOT of bad habits. If you put him in now, he's only going to lean on those habits more. For example, running when his first read isn't there. I dare Tim Tebow to do that consistently and not get hurt.

Moreover, the list of rookie QBs who floundered when chucked into the fire is longer than those QBs who were successful.

I get everything you've said about Orton. If he can resurrect this team and play at a consistent level, great. Unfortunately for him, I think Invesco will become a pretty hostile place for him if he falters even a little bit. Fair or not, it's going to happen.

In that 'other' thread, you said something that is 100% correct. Fox would have lost the locker room if he started Tebow and he was not the clear-cut starter. True. They kind of painted themselves into a corner, and Orton is the only option. I just hope they know when to give Tebow a chance should Orton prove to be just 'Ortonary'.

Over the course of two years, Kyle Orton has averaged 3700 yards passing, 20.5 TDs, and 10.5 INTS. Along with that, he has a QB rating of 87.1 during his time in Denver. If that's "Ortonary," then I'm MORE than happy with Ortonary. Give me a 1,000 yard rusher and even the 15th-ranked defense, and "Ortonary" is going to take us to the playoffs.

[Jonsco28]

Re: Official Denver Broncos Thread

What's that saying, something like 'stats are for losers'? None of it matters if it doesn't translate into wins. I'll take 180 yards a game, two picks, and a win everday over 350 yards, two touchdowns, and a loss. Stats do not matter. Wins matter. Blame it on the coach, the system, playcalling, poor defense, lack of running game, whatever... Orton has not been winning. You keep making it sound like Orton has nothing to do with the losses. We will see.

Yep, Tebow's mechanics are lacking. Mechanics aren't always the end-all. Phillip Rivers has an extremely unorthodox throwing motion, but he gets it done. Tebow probably won't ever totally rectify everything. His decision making will improve as will his overal QB play.

You believe in Orton, and that's great. From what I've seen, I don't. I have very little confidence that he can come through when the game is on the line. A good practice QB means nothing if you can't get it done on gameday.

I never said Tebow should start. I just don't believe Orton is all that you are making him out to be. If I am wrong, I'll eat my words. I have no problem with that. The bottom line is that I want to see the Broncos get back to being a repectable football team that is relevant year in and year out.

We seem to be on opposite ends here. It will be fun to see how it plays out. Hopefully they make the right choices and the Broncos pull themselves out of this horrible rut.

[wwharton]

Re: Official Denver Broncos Thread

What's that saying, something like 'stats are for losers'? None of it matters if it doesn't translate into wins. I'll take 180 yards a game, two picks, and a win everday over 350 yards, two touchdowns, and a loss. Stats do not matter. Wins matter. Blame it on the coach, the system, playcalling, poor defense, lack of running game, whatever... Orton has not been winning. You keep making it sound like Orton has nothing to do with the losses. We will see.

Yep, Tebow's mechanics are lacking. Mechanics aren't always the end-all. Phillip Rivers has an extremely unorthodox throwing motion, but he gets it done. Tebow probably won't ever totally rectify everything. His decision making will improve as will his overal QB play.

You believe in Orton, and that's great. From what I've seen, I don't. I have very little confidence that he can come through when the game is on the line. A good practice QB means nothing if you can't get it done on gameday.

I never said Tebow should start. I just don't believe Orton is all that you are making him out to be. If I am wrong, I'll eat my words. I have no problem with that. The bottom line is that I want to see the Broncos get back to being a repectable football team that is relevant year in and year out.

We seem to be on opposite ends here. It will be fun to see how it plays out. Hopefully they make the right choices and the Broncos pull themselves out of this horrible rut.

Stats aren't worthless though. I just can't really fathom how you put so MUCH of the record on Orton, considering his stats. Add his stats to everything else we know... the best player on the defense (and arguably the team) was out all last year, they lost a quality defensive coordinator and had other injury issues. The D sucked and had a good excuse for it. RB was a merry go round, the blocking wasn't great and the scheme didn't help. The things he's bringing up make a lot more sense than just saying "who cares about the QB's stats, the team (THE TEAM) was 4-12 so he has to be blamed."

[Broncos86]

Re: Official Denver Broncos Thread

Right. How is it Orton gets so much blame for losing, yet you're willing to accept a QB who throws for 150 yards and 2 INTs but the team wins? That's not the team winning because of the QB, that's the team winning in spite of the QB. With that logic, a QB who hands off the ball all day long and never throws a pass is a "winning" QB.

[Jonsco28]

Re: Official Denver Broncos Thread

So you'd rather have a QB who posts huge numbers, but loses (ala Orton)? Not me. Like it or not, a quarterback has to make plays to win close games. Orton has shown me that he cannot do that. I never said it was all his fault, but you are putting the blame everywhere but on him.

I think you are so caught up in trying to prove your point that you are no longer being honest with what is actually going on. Part of the reason the defense has been so bad IS Kyle Orton. If you can't put drives together, you put your defense right back out on the field. Do that enough times and they get tired. That happened to Larry Coyer's defense in 2006, Nolan's defense in 2009, and...well...Slowick's defense last year was abysmal. It's all tied together. Yes, the lack of a running game plays a part as well. Orton has to have everything working in harmony or the Broncos don't win. Very seldom does everything work in harmony. Kyle Orton has proven time after time that he cannot take over a game or overcome adversity. That's the truth. If you are looking for a quarterback that depends on the stars being aligned...Kyle's your guy.

I remember watching Orton play for the Bears a few years ago, and I said to myself, "Thank God Denver doesn't have a QB like that"... I died a little inside when it was announced that Cutler had been traded to Chicago and Orton was going to be Denver's new QB.

[Jonsco28]

Re: Official Denver Broncos Thread

Stats aren't worthless though. I just can't really fathom how you put so MUCH of the record on Orton, considering his stats. Add his stats to everything else we know... the best player on the defense (and arguably the team) was out all last year, they lost a quality defensive coordinator and had other injury issues. The D sucked and had a good excuse for it. RB was a merry go round, the blocking wasn't great and the scheme didn't help. The things he's bringing up make a lot more sense than just saying "who cares about the QB's stats, the team (THE TEAM) was 4-12 so he has to be blamed."

You are totally missing the point. I didn't say that stats are worthless. They can be very misleading. Wins trump stats.