Must Watch Video—Player Differentiation

[giantsharks]

Re: Must Watch Video—Player Differentiation

You know what else is sad? they put so much time into presentation for 15 (something that was lacking heavily) and made it marginally better. Stadiums look better and thats it. Crowd still sucks to me, celebrations leave something to be desired, just everything. I think that gameplay is the most important aspect but its just disheartening that so much time was put into presentation and crap came out. I dont know what limitations they have making this game and i hate to sound so mean but i feel like they just dont get it, they dont capture anything that is the essence of hockey

[jsquigg]

Re: Must Watch Video—Player Differentiation

I'm not saying player differentation is done well enough (it isn't) but I'm not sure people realize how little the differences are on the top level of any sport. A lot of the differences are things that are very difficult to translate into a video game because the user handles players differently than that player would react in real life. For instance, there could be very little difference in actual speed between two players, but how fast they react to the game or their awareness level could be vastly different. Most professionals would amaze you in a practice/drill environment. It amazes me how many people complain about differentiation in an era of parity.

[giantsharks]

Re: Must Watch Video—Player Differentiation

I'm not saying player differentation is done well enough (it isn't) but I'm not sure people realize how little the differences are on the top level of any sport. A lot of the differences are things that are very difficult to translate into a video game because the user handles players differently than that player would react in real life. For instance, there could be very little difference in actual speed between two players, but how fast they react to the game or their awareness level could be vastly different. Most professionals would amaze you in a practice/drill environment. It amazes me how many people complain about differentiation in an era of parity.

dude john scott and sidney crosby should be different. I've been to sharks practices this year and ive seen john scott playing, hes better then you would think(hes in the nhl) but cmon man, he does not have the same skill set as crosby

[bad_philanthropy]

Re: Must Watch Video—Player Differentiation

My greatest hope at this point is that Project CARS opens the door for other capable indie devs to take on other sports in the spirit of "hardcore." If we get to that day I'll be happy to support them with my money, and to leave the big publisher games and their focus on the card games for good.

I've never understood modes in simulation sports games that make the experience more abstract like, well, a video game, but to each their own.

[canucksss]

Re: Must Watch Video—Player Differentiation

My greatest hope at this point is that Project CARS opens the door for other capable indie devs to take on other sports in the spirit of "hardcore." If we get to that day I'll be happy to support them with my money, and to leave the big publisher games and their focus on the card games for good.

I've never understood modes in simulation sports games that make the experience more abstract like, well, a video game, but to each their own.

I am for that....except it should come out before arthritis comes to my hands

[Money99]

Re: Must Watch Video—Player Differentiation

I'm not saying player differentation is done well enough (it isn't) but I'm not sure people realize how little the differences are on the top level of any sport. A lot of the differences are things that are very difficult to translate into a video game because the user handles players differently than that player would react in real life. For instance, there could be very little difference in actual speed between two players, but how fast they react to the game or their awareness level could be vastly different. Most professionals would amaze you in a practice/drill environment. It amazes me how many people complain about differentiation in an era of parity.

As sharks said, the difference between Crosby and John Scott shouldn't be that close.
The fact that there was hardly any difference in puck handling, speed agility, etc is laughable.

I do agree that if you compare individual skills across the board, there's probably not a lot of difference between the majority of players.
Where players separate themselves during games and in the stats is their ability to dissect plays in the heat of battle.
But in a video game, that's nearly impossible to program. And judging by the fact that EA thinks it's perfectly fine to make John Scott equal to Crosby, they are the last programming team on earth to get proper decision-making AI right.

So the obvious thing to do is to crank up player differential to 11.

I still have fun playing NHL15 on current-gen. But I don't bother playing GM mode, or any other mode but 'Play Now'.
Playing in GM mode, there is absolutely zero difference between any of the teams or players.
You could play the same team 82 times and just have them change uniforms and you wouldn't even notice any difference.

[actionhank]

Re: Must Watch Video—Player Differentiation

I'm not saying player differentation is done well enough (it isn't) but I'm not sure people realize how little the differences are on the top level of any sport. A lot of the differences are things that are very difficult to translate into a video game because the user handles players differently than that player would react in real life. For instance, there could be very little difference in actual speed between two players, but how fast they react to the game or their awareness level could be vastly different. Most professionals would amaze you in a practice/drill environment. It amazes me how many people complain about differentiation in an era of parity.

There's definitely more skilled guys, but the difference between guys like Thornton, Crosby, and Ovechkin should be pretty easy to see when comparing to someone like John Scott or Ryan Reaves. When everyone's as likely to perform well, there's no variation in the way teams play, and no variation in the outcome of games outside of the random AI and player input. When it's just as easy to skate through defenders with Ryan Reaves as it is Vladimir Tarasenko, then there's little need to worry about the small details of the game, or really worry about who's on the ice.
Hell, I've noticed when playing the game, i don't really put lines on the ice for any reason than "This line's tired, line 1 is good and has full energy" or "the 2nd D pair is tired, I'll throw out 3, they're rested". There's no strategy in recognizing who's on the ice, and adjusting the game or lines accordingly.

Ovechkin and players of that skill should obviously have a greater chance of pulling off incredible dekes, scoring a simple wrist shot from the circles, or scoring on the powerplay, but the way it is now, it doesn't really matter. If my 4th line's out, whatever. They can score and deflect shots just as well. They might even be slightly better to use, since they're all big grinders, and hitting is overly valued in the game.

I think the parity of the NHL is overstated. There's no denying that every player is highly skilled, but the difference in how defenders like Barret Jackman or Jay Bouwmeester skate should be noticeable, even if only slightly. A guy like Bouwmeester should have an easier time maneuvering, covering gaps in defense, and positioning himself. He doesn't rely on the physical game, but instead on quickly closing gaps and putting pressure on offensive players (Something that is also missing, since the AI can easily just hold the puck to the side and skate around unmolested). Guys like Jackman rely on being in good position to block shots and passes, as well as roughing up guys along the boards and in front of the net. They both have their value, and they both have their role to play, but in NHL currently, that's missing.

If I'm against a quicker team, I should have to debate double-shifting J-Bo to keep up with quick and agile forwards when possible, so that I can get the better matchups. Jackman would be better suited for defensive zone drops and playing against their bigger grinding lines.

I just want the AI and attributes to more accurately represent real players, and the reasons for needing them.

[Money99]

Re: Must Watch Video—Player Differentiation

There's definitely more skilled guys, but the difference between guys like Thornton, Crosby, and Ovechkin should be pretty easy to see when comparing to someone like John Scott or Ryan Reaves. When everyone's as likely to perform well, there's no variation in the way teams play, and no variation in the outcome of games outside of the random AI and player input. When it's just as easy to skate through defenders with Ryan Reaves as it is Vladimir Tarasenko, then there's little need to worry about the small details of the game, or really worry about who's on the ice.
Hell, I've noticed when playing the game, i don't really put lines on the ice for any reason than "This line's tired, line 1 is good and has full energy" or "the 2nd D pair is tired, I'll throw out 3, they're rested". There's no strategy in recognizing who's on the ice, and adjusting the game or lines accordingly.

Ovechkin and players of that skill should obviously have a greater chance of pulling off incredible dekes, scoring a simple wrist shot from the circles, or scoring on the powerplay, but the way it is now, it doesn't really matter. If my 4th line's out, whatever. They can score and deflect shots just as well. They might even be slightly better to use, since they're all big grinders, and hitting is overly valued in the game.

I think the parity of the NHL is overstated. There's no denying that every player is highly skilled, but the difference in how defenders like Barret Jackman or Jay Bouwmeester skate should be noticeable, even if only slightly. A guy like Bouwmeester should have an easier time maneuvering, covering gaps in defense, and positioning himself. He doesn't rely on the physical game, but instead on quickly closing gaps and putting pressure on offensive players (Something that is also missing, since the AI can easily just hold the puck to the side and skate around unmolested). Guys like Jackman rely on being in good position to block shots and passes, as well as roughing up guys along the boards and in front of the net. They both have their value, and they both have their role to play, but in NHL currently, that's missing.

If I'm against a quicker team, I should have to debate double-shifting J-Bo to keep up with quick and agile forwards when possible, so that I can get the better matchups. Jackman would be better suited for defensive zone drops and playing against their bigger grinding lines.

I just want the AI and attributes to more accurately represent real players, and the reasons for needing them.

THIS^^^^^^^.

Couldn't have said it better.
Give me a reason to put Player A on the ice over Player B.
Like you said, outside of energy level, there really isn't a difference.
When I used to play this game a lot, it really didn't matter if I had Lidstrom on the ice over a guy like Brendan Smith.

I would love it if the NHL series added 'weapons' like AFL2K had.
In the end, this game will always feel the same as long as every player feels the same.

[bigwill33]

Re: Must Watch Video—Player Differentiation

Anyone that has spent anytime around NHL players or watching hockey can easily see a difference in skill levels between players.

A player like Crosby is an elite athlete. There are maybe 5 other players in the world that are near his level. You can talk to other players and they will say as much.

Play the sport for any amount of time, at any level, and immediately you can see different skill levels. Not everyone can stick handle the same, work in the corners the same, skate the same speed or with the same agility, shoot the same, pass the same, body-up the same... etc. As a matter of fact, I can pretty much step on any rink and within 5 minutes tell who are the skilled players in a game and who are the average players.

This means that if I am playing defense that I know who I have to stay back on and watch their chest before closing the gap and who I can pinch on. If I am attacking their defenders I know who I can try and go wide on, who I can try and dangle, and who I have to dump around and chase in on, or who I have to try and gain the line and then pull-up and survey the ice for pass options because I am not getting around my guy with the puck. Stuff like that. I can also watch a goalie in warmups and see if he likes to go down early, shade his glove side more, how he hugs a post, and whether or not he goes side-to-side quickly or not.

The NHL video game series has a difference in shooting and some speed and that is pretty much it. Other than that everyone can stick handle, pass, and pretty much check and play goaltender the exact same way.

[Smirkin Dirk]

Re: Must Watch Video—Player Differentiation

You know what? I agree with the video, and the posters who claim there is not enough differentation.

But when I played my 82 game season, and played all 28 playoff games, it was still Crosby and Malkin who had scored 120 points, and my grinders who had 5-20 points.

Weird.

[Money99]

Re: Must Watch Video—Player Differentiation

You know what? I agree with the video, and the posters who claim there is not enough differentation.

But when I played my 82 game season, and played all 28 playoff games, it was still Crosby and Malkin who had scored 120 points, and my grinders who had 5-20 points.

Weird.

Two things:
1. Try playing a set of games with your 4th liners getting 1st line time.
2. The USER's players have more separation in a game than the CPU. When I play with Giroux, Stamkos or Tavares, I can't do half of what the CPU can do with John Scott.

With #1, I've played 5 to 10 game sets experimenting, and I found that when playing my 4th line as much as my 1st line, there's little difference in the way of production.
But I'd like to see if you (or anyone else) has the same results.

[bigwill33]

Re: Must Watch Video—Player Differentiation

Shot speed and accuracy does matter in this series. As well as overall skating speed. Just not in the ways that it should.

Those aspects contribute to scoring differentials. But a ton of other attributes have little to no effect in player separation. That is what these videos are showing.

[chrisg19]

Re: Must Watch Video—Player Differentiation

This video goes along way in showing what I consider to be the biggest problem with the NHL series. When you are playing with a Crosby or an Ovechkin on your team there is no real difference between him and a third liner. That is something I thought 2k did well. When I had control of a superstar player, I was able to take advantage of a third or fourth D pairing, and vice-verse, I needed to be aware when I was controlling that third or fourth D pairing, so as not to get burned.

Beyond that there has to be some sort of player tendencys thrown into the mix so you can have some differences in how you approach games. For example if your playing the Avs, Tyson Barrie is going to play Defence completely differently than say a Nick Holden. Barrie with skate with the puck, and poke check, while Holden will look for the hit, and move the puck quickly. Theres just no tendencies to differentiate players. You could slap the Rangers skins on the Panthers players, and the game would play identical. It's just so frustrating...

[AdamJones113]

Re: Must Watch Video—Player Differentiation

This isn't relevant, but it is hilarious:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/961LvDCT6hc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[AdamJones113]

Re: Must Watch Video—Player Differentiation

Just saw this article:

http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2015/04/06/performance-enhancing-plugs-which-sports-game-is-guilty-of-inflated-ratings.aspx

Key point: NHL 15's average NHL rating is 82, about 7 points higher than the next highest average (MLB).