Broke Yotes!!

[bad_philanthropy]

Re: Broke Yotes!!

This has nothing to do with Hamilton's viability as a market. This has everything to do with a.) Bettman not willing to admit defeat regarding southern expansion, and b.) the almighty Maple Leafs not wanting competition in their backyard.

Hm, I always felt like Bettman was somewhat adversarial towards the Toronto market because of their influence and it often reaching into his sphere. I guess when push comes to shove, he will give in to the Toronto market.

It does seem like it's more about him not willing to admit defeat on Southern expansion though.

[DrJones]

Re: Broke Yotes!!

Food for thought: it would appear that tonight's scrimmage at the Canadian Olympic camp in Calgary drew a sellout crowd of 19,289 at an average of $65 per ticket. It's a SCRIMMAGE! In AUGUST!

Why the NHL is so reluctant to admit that Canada + hockey = $$$ is beyond me. You don't see the NFL arguing that they'd prefer to have teams in Poland rather than Texas, do you?

[Money99]

Re: Broke Yotes!!

Food for thought: it would appear that tonight's scrimmage at the Canadian Olympic camp in Calgary drew a sellout crowd of 19,289 at an average of $65 per ticket. It's a SCRIMMAGE! In AUGUST!

Why the NHL is so reluctant to admit that Canada + hockey = $$$ is beyond me. You don't see the NFL arguing that they'd prefer to have teams in Poland rather than Texas, do you?

I don't think that's the issue. The NHL would rather expand it's footprint rather than stamp it down further in areas where it's already a huge success.

They know adding a team in Winnipeg, Quebec City or Hamilton would be wildly successful but it won't help their US exposure or national TV deal.

So they'll continue gambling by putting teams in non-traditional markets hoping to grow the brand.

But at some point, they gotta look at stuff like this and say "Having 1 or 2 more teams in Canada can't be a bad thing".
And considering that a lot of the rich owners are sharing revenue with a bunch of teams in the non-traditional markets, they might want to have more teams that won't require assistance.

I believe this will also be a large bone of contention in the next labor talks. The PA desperately wants more say into where teams move or placed in expansion. They know if you added 2 teams in Canada both those teams would be able to spend near the cap which means more money in the players pockets.

[Money99]

Re: Broke Yotes!!

For those that believe the biggest issue facing the Coyotes is winning, give yourself a cookie.
Compliments to XM NHL Home Ice and James "Boomer" Gordon for pointing these stats out.
Check out the drafts the Coyotes have 'enjoyed' since they moved to the desert.
No wonder they haven't been able to win a playoff round since relocation:

1996 - 11th Dan Focht D Tri-City Americans [WHL] 82 2 6 8 145
- 24th Phoenix Daniel Briere C Drummondville Voltigeurs [QMJHL] 591 204 269 473 459*
1997 - 43rd Juha Gustafsson D Kiekko-Espoo [FNL] No NHL games played
1998 - 14th Patrick DesRochers G Sarnia Sting [OHL] 11 0 0 0 2
1999 - 15th Scott Kelman C Seattle Thunderbirds [WHL] No NHL games played
2000 - 19th Krys Kolanos C Boston College [NCAA] 136 20 21 41 92
2001 - 11th Fredrik Sjostrom R Vastra Frolunda HC Goteborg [SEL] 358 41 47 88 164
2002 - 19th Jakub Koreis C Plzen HC [Czech] No NHL games played
2003 - 77th Tyler Redenbach C Swift Current Broncos [WHL] No NHL games played
2004 - 5th Blake Wheeler R Breck School (Minn.) 81 21 24 45 46
2005 - 17th Martin Hanzal C Budejovice Jrs (Czech Rep.) 146 19 47 66 68

2006 - 8th Peter Mueller C Everett Silvertips [WHL] 153 35 55 90 56
2007 - 3th Kyle Turris C Burnaby Express [BCHL] 66 8 13 21 23
2008 - 8th Mikkel Boedker L Kitchener Rangers [OHL] 78 11 17 28 18
28th Viktor Tikhonov W Cherepovets Severstal [Russia] 61 8 8 16 20
2009 - 6th Oliver Ekman-Larsson D Leksands IF [Swe-1] (Very high upside)



Noteable 1st round players that were selected after Phoenix's selections:

1996 - Derek Morris, Daius Zubrus, Marcus Nilson, Marco Sturm
1997 - Traded 16th overall pick to Chicago (Ty Jones). Brendan Morrow only player of note that was selected after the 16th choice.
1998 - Martin Skoula, Dimitri Kalinin, Robyn Regehr, Simone Gagne, Jiri Fischer, Mike Van Ryn, Scott Gomez
1999 - Nick Boynton, Martin Havlat
2000 - Alexander Frolov, Brad Boyes, Steve Ott, Justin Williams, Niklas Kronwall
2001 - Ales Hemsky, Dan Hamhuis, Colby Armstrong, Tim Gleason
2002 - Daniel Paille, Cam Ward, Alexander Steen
2003 - Phoenix didn't even have their first two round draft picks in what has been regarded as the deepest draft since 1979.
They traded their 11th overall pick to Philadelphia (which turned out to be Jeff Carter) for ...wait for it...Daymond Langkow. In fact, the Coyotes traded their first and second round pick for Langkow.
2004 - Sadly, Blake Wheeler found a loophole and became a free agent after refusing to sign with the Coyotes after 2 years in college.
2005 - First good pick in a long time.

* Daniel Briere was traded for Chris Gratton at 2002-2003 Deadline.

[SPTO]

Re: Broke Yotes!!

Here's an interesting thing that was brought up yesterday by a legal expert from SI. Apparently with the NHL conceding that if they win the bid and can't find ownership for the team they'll look to move it. Well Judge Baum has been very reluctant to tamper with the NHL rules in his decision but if the NHL is conceding that it may move then it opens the door for the judge to grant the winning bid to Balsillie.

Also breaking news from last night is that if the NHL wins the bid they're immediately going to try and work out a new lease agreement with the city of Glendale with probably an escape clause put in there somewhere.

This is a huge gamble on the NHL's part IMO as it truly does open the door for Balsillie and makes his demands seem less outlandish then they were just last week.

[Money99]

Re: Broke Yotes!!

Here's an interesting thing that was brought up yesterday by a legal expert from SI. Apparently with the NHL conceding that if they win the bid and can't find ownership for the team they'll look to move it. Well Judge Baum has been very reluctant to tamper with the NHL rules in his decision but if the NHL is conceding that it may move then it opens the door for the judge to grant the winning bid to Balsillie.

Also breaking news from last night is that if the NHL wins the bid they're immediately going to try and work out a new lease agreement with the city of Glendale with probably an escape clause put in there somewhere.

This is a huge gamble on the NHL's part IMO as it truly does open the door for Balsillie and makes his demands seem less outlandish then they were just last week.

Absolutely. The NHL's stance this entire time has been "Glendale is a good hockey market and the lease is too hard to break". Now the NHL is telling the judge we're going to buy the team, break the lease and move it someplace else.

So essentially this has come down to "We don't like Ballsillie so please give us the team over him".

The NHL doesn't have a lot of credibility when they say he's a poor choice for an owner. They approved him once and the NHL has a rich history of allowing men of questionable business practices to own teams;
Mcnall, Boots Delbagio, Samueli, etc.

I really believe if Ballsillie's latest bid allowed the Coyotes to stay put for one more year and only move after this season, Judge Baum would accept his bid. His haste and impatience will be his undoing.

[Money99]

Re: Broke Yotes!!

Okay, I'm extremely bored today so I started looking at Coyotes attendance numbers.
I've heard the argument that if the team was still in Scottsdale it wouldn't be where it is.
But then if you look at these, you could almost make the argument that there wouldn't be any difference:

96-97 - 15,604
97-98 - 15,405
98-99 - 15,548
99-00 - 14,991
00-01 - 14,224
01-02 - 13,161
02-03 - 13,229
03-04 - 15,469 * Moved to Jobing.com Arena on December 26, 2003.
05-06 - 15,582
06-07 - 14,988
07-08 - 14,820
08-09 - 14,875

Now, there are a few things that remain in question. First, what was the average ticket price while in Scottsdale compared to Glendale.
Also, we all know that owners smudge attendance numbers by adding in all tickets used - not necessarily how many tickets were bought and paid for.
So for all I know, the numbers while in Scottsdale might be more accurate. Those might be actual tickets purchased and not the thousands that are given away and accounted for at Jobbings.com Arena.

Anyone from Phoenix that could verify this?

Anyway, it would appear that even if the team were in a better location, they might still be moving out of town.
I'm sure winning would have certainly helped. Just look at the Cardinals. A reporter for the Arizona Republic even stated that before last year, they could have been relocated and nobody in Phoenix would have cared.
So if the Yotes could actually win a playoff series this season, who knows?

[DrJones]

Re: Broke Yotes!!

I don't think that's the issue. The NHL would rather expand it's footprint rather than stamp it down further in areas where it's already a huge success.

They know adding a team in Winnipeg, Quebec City or Hamilton would be wildly successful but it won't help their US exposure or national TV deal.

So they'll continue gambling by putting teams in non-traditional markets hoping to grow the brand.

I wouldn't be railing (as much) about this if there was any evidence whatsoever that putting teams in non-traditional markets have grown the brand at all. We're entering Season 20 of "expanding the footprint", and the NHL's national TV deal in the US is for a whopping zero dollars. This despite the on-ice success of several Sun Belt teams (Dallas, Tampa Bay, Carolina, Anaheim) and the virtual disappearance of Canadian teams from the latter rounds of the playoffs. In other words, it's pretty much been a best-case on-ice scenario for the NHL, and this is the result?

[VanCitySportsGuy]

Re: Broke Yotes!!

For those that believe the biggest issue facing the Coyotes is winning, give yourself a cookie.
Compliments to XM NHL Home Ice and James "Boomer" Gordon for pointing these stats out.
Check out the drafts the Coyotes have 'enjoyed' since they moved to the desert.
No wonder they haven't been able to win a playoff round since relocation:

1996 - 11th Dan Focht D Tri-City Americans [WHL] 82 2 6 8 145
- 24th Phoenix Daniel Briere C Drummondville Voltigeurs [QMJHL] 591 204 269 473 459*
1997 - 43rd Juha Gustafsson D Kiekko-Espoo [FNL] No NHL games played
1998 - 14th Patrick DesRochers G Sarnia Sting [OHL] 11 0 0 0 2
1999 - 15th Scott Kelman C Seattle Thunderbirds [WHL] No NHL games played
2000 - 19th Krys Kolanos C Boston College [NCAA] 136 20 21 41 92
2001 - 11th Fredrik Sjostrom R Vastra Frolunda HC Goteborg [SEL] 358 41 47 88 164
2002 - 19th Jakub Koreis C Plzen HC [Czech] No NHL games played
2003 - 77th Tyler Redenbach C Swift Current Broncos [WHL] No NHL games played
2004 - 5th Blake Wheeler R Breck School (Minn.) 81 21 24 45 46
2005 - 17th Martin Hanzal C Budejovice Jrs (Czech Rep.) 146 19 47 66 68

2006 - 8th Peter Mueller C Everett Silvertips [WHL] 153 35 55 90 56
2007 - 3th Kyle Turris C Burnaby Express [BCHL] 66 8 13 21 23
2008 - 8th Mikkel Boedker L Kitchener Rangers [OHL] 78 11 17 28 18
28th Viktor Tikhonov W Cherepovets Severstal [Russia] 61 8 8 16 20
2009 - 6th Oliver Ekman-Larsson D Leksands IF [Swe-1] (Very high upside)



Noteable 1st round players that were selected after Phoenix's selections:

1996 - Derek Morris, Daius Zubrus, Marcus Nilson, Marco Sturm
1997 - Traded 16th overall pick to Chicago (Ty Jones). Brendan Morrow only player of note that was selected after the 16th choice.
1998 - Martin Skoula, Dimitri Kalinin, Robyn Regehr, Simone Gagne, Jiri Fischer, Mike Van Ryn, Scott Gomez
1999 - Nick Boynton, Martin Havlat
2000 - Alexander Frolov, Brad Boyes, Steve Ott, Justin Williams, Niklas Kronwall
2001 - Ales Hemsky, Dan Hamhuis, Colby Armstrong, Tim Gleason
2002 - Daniel Paille, Cam Ward, Alexander Steen
2003 - Phoenix didn't even have their first two round draft picks in what has been regarded as the deepest draft since 1979.
They traded their 11th overall pick to Philadelphia (which turned out to be Jeff Carter) for ...wait for it...Daymond Langkow. In fact, the Coyotes traded their first and second round pick for Langkow.
2004 - Sadly, Blake Wheeler found a loophole and became a free agent after refusing to sign with the Coyotes after 2 years in college.
2005 - First good pick in a long time.

* Daniel Briere was traded for Chris Gratton at 2002-2003 Deadline.

Their drafting has been brutal. I know Turris just turned 20, but he was brutal last season. I wouldn't be surprised if he turns out to be another bust.

It's also mind boggling how a bad team could lose a player like Wheeler for only a 2nd round comp pick.

[Money99]

Re: Broke Yotes!!

I wouldn't be railing (as much) about this if there was any evidence whatsoever that putting teams in non-traditional markets have grown the brand at all. We're entering Season 20 of "expanding the footprint", and the NHL's national TV deal in the US is for a whopping zero dollars. This despite the on-ice success of several Sun Belt teams (Dallas, Tampa Bay, Carolina, Anaheim) and the virtual disappearance of Canadian teams from the latter rounds of the playoffs. In other words, it's pretty much been a best-case on-ice scenario for the NHL, and this is the result?

I agree with you. I understand the NHL's desire to expand the footprint, but clearly it's not working as they thought it would.

At some point the BOG needs to finally wake up and realize that elusive big TV deal is not there. We'll never have anything close to what the NBA pulls in.
So you might as well concede and put teams in areas where you know they'll be strong and make a profit.
I'm sure teams like Detroit, Philly, NY, Toronto, Montreal, etc aren't pleased with having to keep small market teams like Atlanta and Phoenix afloat. Especially when you consider they'll probably never be a huge draw and have the ability to survive without assistance.

In these economic times everyone and every company seems to have cut back. And yet the NHL is talking expansion. Ridiculous. Cut some of the fat and make sure you have a healthy 24-26 teams before you grow. And then when you do, pick hockey markets, not experiments.

Asiaflow, I'm also starting to wonder if Turris is going to be a bust.
He's very young, but last year he looked absolutely lost.

However, you never can tell. I believe it was Owen Nolan who scored 3 goals as a rookie and then potted 42 the next season.

[SPTO]

Re: Broke Yotes!!

Apparently Balsille's lawyers have filed some papers showing that the Leafs still have the territorial veto which the NHL has denied vociferously. If there's such a veto in place it may be illegal what with it being anti-competition measures.

[Money99]

Re: Broke Yotes!!

TSN is blogging live in Phoenix.
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=289668

This particular post intrigues me:

2:48 Judge Baum has asked Balsillie to reconsider his September 14th deadline.

I really believe that if Ballsillie was in favor of keeping the Yotes in Glendale for one season before relocating he would win the bid.
Moyes supports the bid as does a group representing the other creditors. That is a HUGE advantage in bankruptcy court.
And now with the NHL posting a bid and saying they'll move the team in a year if a buyer can't be found, Baum would almost certainly accept Ballsillies bid seeing as it's inevitable the team will be moved and his J.B's bid pays back a larger number of the creditors.

It's amazing to me how little Ballsillie seems willing to bend. The judge is all but saying 'move the relocation date and the team is yours'. Why won't he concede this one thing? Sure he'll take a $30M haircut, but he'll finally get his team and in 12 months it'll be in Hamilton.

[devilsjaw]

Re: Broke Yotes!!

TSN is blogging live in Phoenix.
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=289668

This particular post intrigues me:



I really believe that if Ballsillie was in favor of keeping the Yotes in Glendale for one season before relocating he would win the bid.
Moyes supports the bid as does a group representing the other creditors. That is a HUGE advantage in bankruptcy court.
And now with the NHL posting a bid and saying they'll move the team in a year if a buyer can't be found, Baum would almost certainly accept Ballsillies bid seeing as it's inevitable the team will be moved and his J.B's bid pays back a larger number of the creditors.

It's amazing to me how little Ballsillie seems willing to bend. The judge is all but saying 'move the relocation date and the team is yours'. Why won't he concede this one thing? Sure he'll take a $30M haircut, but he'll finally get his team and in 12 months it'll be in Hamilton.

There's a good point in the comments section about Bettman not fighting this hard to keep the Jets and Nordiques in their cities.

[SPTO]

Re: Broke Yotes!!

There's a good point in the comments section about Bettman not fighting this hard to keep the Jets and Nordiques in their cities.

Mainly because the whole footprint into the sun belt cities was all Bettman's initiative and was his ticket to becoming Commish. It's sad that he has to hang his hat on what is largely a failure of epic proportions.

At least when other leagues have tried this kind of thing they came to their senses The one off the top of my head being the CFL, for all the ridicule that league got over the years at least they were smart enough to pull out when the US expansion was going to hell. (except in Baltimore)

[ChrisHero]

Re: Broke Yotes!!

It's amazing to me how little Ballsillie seems willing to bend. The judge is all but saying 'move the relocation date and the team is yours'. Why won't he concede this one thing? Sure he'll take a $30M haircut, but he'll finally get his team and in 12 months it'll be in Hamilton.

I'm hoping this is what ultimately ends up happening. Granted the attendance numbers will further plunge for the last season, but they're already near the bottom of the league anyways.