NHL Off-Topic thread

[DrJones]

Re: NHL Off-Topic thread

My opinion is that hockey will never be considered a 'top sport' until a few things happen:
- The violence ends. Fist-fighting in a sporting event appeases a small portion of society, but you'll never gain a mainstream audience if this continues.
- scoring is way, way, way too low. The league needs to return to the days of 7.5-8.5 GPG. It also needs a minimum of ten players recording 100+ point seasons and the minimum two or three 50-goal scorers.
An 87-point Art Ross winner isn't going to endear the sport to anyone. Even in soccer, the top goal scorers record about 1 goal per game.
Wayne Gretzky was a house-hold name even in the U.S. while playing for Edmonton. EDMONTON!
Nobody can tell me that more American's wouldn't stand up and take notice if the league featured high scoring, exciting players from Philly, Bos or even Arizona.
- game needs to get back on ESPN - which probably doesn't happen unless the first 2 are addressed.

Whether people love or hate ESPN, they drive the industry. Heck, I think it's pathetic that ESPN anchors are, at times, more famous than the athletes themselves.
But that's the truth. If the NHL gets back on that station, the league has a chance to prosper.
But as it stands, NHL hockey is pretty much 100% regional.
I'd venture to say that 99% of fans follow one team only. Even my hockey loving buddies don't have a clue who plays where anymore.
But I can't say I blame them. Why would an out-of-market fan tune into any game that doesn't feature their favourite team?
Most games these days are incredibly boring to watch with nothing really happening for long stretches.

I believe you are correct sir; ESPN is broadcasting the games.

To add to the list, another thing that hurts the NHL is that the standings and format is a bit confusing to a lot of people.
People might shake their heads and wonder what OTL or SO losses are.
And they might also wonder why the regular season has different rules for OT than the playoffs.
It might seem simple, but I can see why some might think this is a bit Mickey Mouse in the large scheme of things.

I'd love it if the NHL adopted a play till you win scenario with OT and then even adopt 3-on-3 in the playoffs.
Just make it the same.
But then that would destroy Gary's false-parity scheme so teams can still win less than 50% of their games and maintain an above .500 record.

You're projecting here. Just be honest and say these are the changes that YOU want to see made to make YOU happier as a fan. And hey, most of these changes would make me happier as well. But they have absolutely nothing to do with hockey's status as a mainstream/niche sport in the US. The NHL will NEVER be appreciably more popular in the States than it is now, regardless of how exciting or boring the games are. Barring the emergence of an American-born Gretzky/Jordan/Tiger level talent with top shelf charisma, it just ain't happening. And that's okay.

[pietasterp]

Re: NHL Off-Topic thread

You're projecting here. Just be honest and say these are the changes that YOU want to see made to make YOU happier as a fan. And hey, most of these changes would make me happier as well. But they have absolutely nothing to do with hockey's status as a mainstream/niche sport in the US. The NHL will NEVER be appreciably more popular in the States than it is now, regardless of how exciting or boring the games are. Barring the emergence of an American-born Gretzky/Jordan/Tiger level talent with top shelf charisma, it just ain't happening. And that's okay.

I agree with most of what you said, with the exception of your assertion that hockey will "NEVER be appreciably more popular in the States than it is now". I think these things fluctuate, and they do take time. Tastes change, storylines change...I mean, did anyone honestly think they'd ever see a day where every EPL game was watchable on regular networks in the USA? I mean, you can tune into a random Bundesliga game on Fox Sports on a normal Saturday afternoon. 20 years ago people would have laughed at that notion. Now Gus Johnson is learning how to pronounce "Schweinsteiger".

I don't know what the trigger or tipping point would be for the NHL to change its status in the American sports landscape, but I have seen the popularity of entire leagues wax and wane even in the relatively short amount of time I've been paying attention to these types of things. Baseball being wholly eclipsed by the NFL, hockey reaching prominence during the Messier-led Ranger days and the Gretzky-led Kings days (remember the infamous SI cover "Why the NHL is hot and the NBA is not"?), NBA peaking during the Jordan days, etc. The list goes on. Things change, and I would never say hockey will never be more popular than it is now in the US. I just don't think the catalyst will be something forseeable. It almost certainly won't be a rule change or manufactured alteration to the game to increase goal-scoring (although that may not hurt), but who knows? These things are generally only identifiable in retrospect.

But I'm sure Canadians aren't worried about it one way or the other.

[Money99]

Re: NHL Off-Topic thread

Good points by both of you gents.

Baseball, horse racing and boxing used to be the Big 3 of sports 50 years ago.

I never thought I'd see a day where MMA would be more popular than boxing - especially after watching the original UFC 1.

You never know if hockey will eventually usurp one of the big 3 today.
I do think it's very possible if an American came in and was the next Gretzky or Lemieux.
Golf was popular but went into a completely different stratosphere when Tiger Woods came on the scene.
And basketball was kind of wandering in the sports wilderness until Bird and Magic came around. It shot the moon once Jordan usurped them.

DrJones, I agree with a lot of your points. It may never happen simply because it's a foreign sport to so many in the populace.
They don't grow up with it.
But 20 years from now? Who knows?
Maybe if a US born player were to take the helm and be the Lebron of the NHL.
Still, I don't think the American publics imagination can be captured if said Superstar is recording 90 points a year.
We'd need to see him get 150+ for that to happen.
And we all know major changes would need to happen for that to take place.

[Speedy]

Re: NHL Off-Topic thread

You're projecting here. Just be honest and say these are the changes that YOU want to see made to make YOU happier as a fan. And hey, most of these changes would make me happier as well. But they have absolutely nothing to do with hockey's status as a mainstream/niche sport in the US. The NHL will NEVER be appreciably more popular in the States than it is now, regardless of how exciting or boring the games are. Barring the emergence of an American-born Gretzky/Jordan/Tiger level talent with top shelf charisma, it just ain't happening. And that's okay.

You're always well thought out but I disagree, Doc.

Hockey is invariably a fun sport when it's high scoring because it's non-stop action. There are stars in the league but most that we haven't heard of...Sidney Crosby, Ovechin, Kane - I don't really recall anybody else that's a star beyond these three.

Back in the 90s, I remember Jagr, Yzerman, Federov, Joe Thornton, Hasek, Modano, Broduer, Chris Pronger, Lidstrom, Lindros. I live on tobacco road (huge college basketball country and Braves country with MLB) but I remember these stars even as a kid. I remember playing a franchise as the Red Wings or Penguins on NHL 2001 and just loving the Hurricanes when they went to the finals in 2002 and again in 2006.

I think marketing has been hockey's downfall, along with the lockouts that just derailed any momentum and curtailed any fans from gaining interest. NHL has the stars in the game but nobody in the USA or outside of Canada knows (or for that matter, care). Melrose should not be the face of the NHL.

I think the product simply needs to be adjusted to where it was in the 80s and 90s. Bring the offense back (points >100 and goal scores > 50) and put it in primetime. Shoot, get rid of Bettman.

[DrJones]

Re: NHL Off-Topic thread

You're always well thought out but I disagree, Doc.

Hockey is invariably a fun sport when it's high scoring because it's non-stop action. There are stars in the league but most that we haven't heard of...Sidney Crosby, Ovechin, Kane - I don't really recall anybody else that's a star beyond these three.

Back in the 90s, I remember Jagr, Yzerman, Federov, Joe Thornton, Hasek, Modano, Broduer, Chris Pronger, Lidstrom, Lindros. I live on tobacco road (huge college basketball country and Braves country with MLB) but I remember these stars even as a kid. I remember playing a franchise as the Red Wings or Penguins on NHL 2001 and just loving the Hurricanes when they went to the finals in 2002 and again in 2006.

I think marketing has been hockey's downfall, along with the lockouts that just derailed any momentum and curtailed any fans from gaining interest. NHL has the stars in the game but nobody in the USA or outside of Canada knows (or for that matter, care). Melrose should not be the face of the NHL.

I think the product simply needs to be adjusted to where it was in the 80s and 90s. Bring the offense back (points >100 and goal scores > 50) and put it in primetime. Shoot, get rid of Bettman.

Hey, other than maybe Money, nobody rants more about missing entertaining, high-scoring hockey than me. I love goals. I hate the risk-averse GUTLESS COWARDS who pass as NHL coaches these days.

But people are talking about the NHL becoming popular in the US on a national scale and challenging the Big Three. That is simply not going to happen. The most memorable moment in American sports history was in hockey, and it remained a niche sport in the US. Hockey used to have lots of big stars and a ton of goals (I was there!), and it remained a niche sport in the US. Sun Belt teams won Cups, and it remained a niche sport in the US. Big market teams won Cups, and it remained a niche sport in the US. The defending Stanley Cup champions in one of America's great cities have not only formed a mini-dynasty while playing entertaining offensive hockey, but they feature an American-born player who is leading the league in scoring and is on pace for 120 points. And hockey remains a niche sport in the US.

Hockey is a cold-weather sport that requires a ton of ice rinks to flourish. Hockey is a very expensive sport to play and raise your kid in. Hockey is a very dangerous sport to play at a high level. American teams have made up at least 2/3 of the league for the last 75 years, but Americans have never comprised more than 25% of the league's players and have yet to produce a true superstar.

I'm not preaching doom and gloom. The NHL is the fifth-richest sports league in the world. It has a bedrock in Canada and passionate fans in the US; it's not going anywhere. Its fortunes will moderately rise and fall over the decades. But all the marketing and ESPN and increased scoring in the world isn't going to put it on the NFL's or MLB's or NBA's level.

[Majingir]

Re: NHL Off-Topic thread

So much for dealing Bernier...Now Sparks is out long term and still no timetable on Reimer.

So unless Leafs deal with Bernier involves getting someone like Ramo or Hiller back from Flames, they're unfortunately keeping him. At least this does improve the Leafs tanking. 1-15-3 in his last 19 games lol.

[Money99]

Re: NHL Off-Topic thread

So much for dealing Bernier...Now Sparks is out long term and still no timetable on Reimer.

So unless Leafs deal with Bernier involves getting someone like Ramo or Hiller back from Flames, they're unfortunately keeping him. At least this does improve the Leafs tanking. 1-15-3 in his last 19 games lol.

LOL, yup.
If you're not going to make the playoffs, you might as well get Austin Matthews.

[AdamJones113]

Re: NHL Off-Topic thread

Hey, other than maybe Money, nobody rants more about missing entertaining, high-scoring hockey than me. I love goals. I hate the risk-averse GUTLESS COWARDS who pass as NHL coaches these days.

But people are talking about the NHL becoming popular in the US on a national scale and challenging the Big Three. That is simply not going to happen. The most memorable moment in American sports history was in hockey, and it remained a niche sport in the US. Hockey used to have lots of big stars and a ton of goals (I was there!), and it remained a niche sport in the US. Sun Belt teams won Cups, and it remained a niche sport in the US. Big market teams won Cups, and it remained a niche sport in the US. The defending Stanley Cup champions in one of America's great cities have not only formed a mini-dynasty while playing entertaining offensive hockey, but they feature an American-born player who is leading the league in scoring and is on pace for 120 points. And hockey remains a niche sport in the US.

Hockey is a cold-weather sport that requires a ton of ice rinks to flourish. Hockey is a very expensive sport to play and raise your kid in. Hockey is a very dangerous sport to play at a high level. American teams have made up at least 2/3 of the league for the last 75 years, but Americans have never comprised more than 25% of the league's players and have yet to produce a true superstar.

I'm not preaching doom and gloom. The NHL is the fifth-richest sports league in the world. It has a bedrock in Canada and passionate fans in the US; it's not going anywhere. Its fortunes will moderately rise and fall over the decades. But all the marketing and ESPN and increased scoring in the world isn't going to put it on the NFL's or MLB's or NBA's level.

Very well said as usual.

The second last paragraph is the key. It's a lot easier for kids to find a basketball and go to their local park to shoot some hoops. It's a lot easier, due to the structure of professional football, to go the Pop-Warner—HS football—CFB—NFL route. There are serious rewards for playing baseball extremely competitively at a young age—the LLWS. Those are all easier, safer, and cheaper options than buying gear and getting started young and finding a place to play hockey.

Another deterrent is the immediate-success angle (this goes for baseball too, somewhat). In the NFL and NBA, players who get drafted early on can star immediately, and can make serious $$ with their first professional stroke of the pen, signing a huge contract right away. For American-born hockey players, you go through the ranks of American hockey, all the way through college, and the you get drafted... and don't get to play for another 2-3 years, and don't get the big bucks for another 3-4 years after that.

Add all that to the safety risk, and bam, NHL is, as you put it, a "niche sport."

[Money99]

Re: NHL Off-Topic thread

The NHL has the largest percentage of fans who've never played the sport.
So I'm not sure youth participation is the driving force behind keeping the NHL behind Golf for popularity.

We've all listed a number of reasons and I think it's basically all of the above:
- low scoring
- lack of youth participation
- lack of American equivalent of Lebron James.
- too many players with names they can't pronounce
- not on ESPN

My whole point about having offensive hockey is that while having more goals and offense might not necessarily make it an instant hit in the U.S., not having it will most definitely keep it out of the Top 3.

[slickdtc]

Re: NHL Off-Topic thread

I like the breakdown of US players and cities being good or great today, and the league remaining niche.

I think there is a window opening up where kids who grew up when SJ, TB, PHX etc were added to the league are starting to become of age. Some of that wave is here, and it'll keep coming. I do think growing the game in places like Raleigh takes at least 20 years if not more. And I guess to the NHL's credit, they haven't yanked those teams at the first sign of danger. Or millionth, like Phoenix. Maybe that's why they're so stubborn in making sure they stay put. Funny how quickly ATL came and went though...

But yeah, I don't see the NHL overtaking football or baseball. Probably not even basketball as that game seems pretty healthy with LeBron and Curry. If anything, I'd say the NHL closely compared to college sports. I grew up in a small state without a D1 team so college sports never appealed to me. But go to a big college town, and it's #1 over even the NFL or MLB. So the Northeast and Northern US (Minnesota, Michigan) are where hockey is a lot bigger then anywhere else. Hockey is one sport that is mainly season dependent, needing the cold. A good portion of the country doesn't get that weather consistently.

There's just too much working against NHL for it to ever be as big as these more inclusive sports and leagues. As long as that's understood and accounted for, the game can still be healthy. But it'll have limitations that the NFL doesn't. Be smart, the NHL is a business after all. Target those who are most likely to become attached to the game, and grow it smartly elsewhere because you can't just ignore them. But don't plant another team in the desert for crying out loud! Or put two teams in Florida which is notoriously averse to professional sports and holds so many transplants from other places.

[Money99]

Re: NHL Off-Topic thread

Is there a lower form of life than Alex Burrows?
If you don't think so, you might after reading this:

Patrick O'Sullivan, survivor of herrendous physical and mental abuse from his father tweeted this:

Burrows only guy who said he wanted to hurt me like me father did-why I can't stand him.

I can only imagine what he said to Tootoo, but it wouldn't take a genius to guess it probably had something to do with his brother committing suicide.

[TheMatrix31]

Re: NHL Off-Topic thread

Sweet. More advocating for teams to lose on purpose. As if last season wasn't enough of a ****ing embarrassment.

[Majingir]

Re: NHL Off-Topic thread

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[carko32]

Re: NHL Off-Topic thread

LOL, yup.
If you're not going to make the playoffs, you might as well get Austin Matthews.

We all know that the Oilers will find a way to get him. Even if that requires change of lottery so that it includes also playoff teams.

[Money99]

Re: NHL Off-Topic thread

Okay, this may sound crazy, but I'd love it if the NHL eliminated powerplays in OT.
I'd rather they call a PS if a penalty occurs. The PP almost seems to slow the game down and prevent fans from the awesomeness that is 3-on-3.