Jack's Record Is Safe

[scagwi]

Re: Jack's Record Is Safe

I honestly think Tiger's career has already been more impressive, simply due to the competition and athleticism that's in the sport now.

[pietasterp]

Re: Jack's Record Is Safe

I believe he is. Jack won his last major at age 46 and Mickelson too and they don't seem anywhere as physically fit as Tiger is now even w/ his injuries and I actually believe that is true both physically and emotionally. But the field is much stronger now than in Jack's day which is why I see Tiger's career as clearly superior to Jack's even if he doesn't nail down 3-4 more majors--especially considering he was out of commission for 4y or so right at his prime.

I'm not sure I agree his physical condition is better than Jack's at age 46, only because no one that's had as many back/neck surgeries and undergone a multiple year rehab several times over the past decade can really be in all that great shape. Tiger was always among the most athletic golfers ever, no doubt, but time and injuries take their toll. He looked great this year, and hopefully that continues, but given his last decade, I think it's always a question of how long his health will hold up.

Re: the field being "much stronger" now than in Jack's day, I would strongly disagree with that. I think this is a case of being too focused on our own current times.

I honestly think Tiger's career has already been more impressive, simply due to the competition and athleticism that's in the sport now.

Potentially, but I think we'll have to see how it looks when it's all said and done. I think depending on how long this second act of his career goes, it can definitely re-write the way we look at his whole golfing life.

[ncp10]

Re: Jack's Record Is Safe

Re: the field being "much stronger" now than in Jack's day, I would strongly disagree with that. I think this is a case of being too focused on our own current times.

In Jack's day there was nowhere near the grooming of golfers from very young ages through the very sophisticated/developed junior golf programs we see today. Many/most golfers of Jack's era were self-taught or with the odd old guru involved w/o the benefits of technology, coaching, fitness focus, etc. Tiger was at the beginning of this trend and it's much more developed now than even when Tiger was a kid. The array of very young talent is the testimony to this reality that was much less the case when Jack was young. Yes, the field is much stronger today than in Jack's day.

[ncp10]

Re: Jack's Record Is Safe

I'm not sure I agree his physical condition is better than Jack's at age 46

Jack was a chunky, flabby 46y/o compared to Tiger at 43--NO CONTEST! Yes, Tiger has had his various injuries and surgeries but can you tell how dedicated he his to keeping himself far more 'fit' than Jack ever was? Sure!

[scagwi]

Re: Jack's Record Is Safe

Re: the field being "much stronger" now than in Jack's day, I would strongly disagree with that. I think this is a case of being too focused on our own current times.

Hmm

I'd honestly say exactly the opposite.

Perhaps the tinted glasses of the "good old days" (which happens to us all - I'm not singling you out) makes it really hard to compare objectively between the eras.

[pietasterp]

Re: Jack's Record Is Safe

In Jack's day there was nowhere near the grooming of golfers from very young ages through the very sophisticated/developed junior golf programs we see today. Many/most golfers of Jack's era were self-taught or with the odd old guru involved w/o the benefits of technology, coaching, fitness focus, etc. Tiger was at the beginning of this trend and it's much more developed now than even when Tiger was a kid. The array of very young talent is the testimony to this reality that was much less the case when Jack was young. Yes, the field is much stronger today than in Jack's day.

Hmm

I'd honestly say exactly the opposite.

Perhaps the tinted glasses of the "good old days" (which happens to us all - I'm not singling you out) makes it really hard to compare objectively between the eras.

Jack's competition over the course of his career included Arnold Palmer, Tom Watson, Lee Trevino, Johnny Miller, Seve Ballesteros, Nick Faldo, Greg Norman, Tony Jacklin, Tommy Bolt, Gary Player....I mean, the list goes on. And those are just the Hall of Famers! That's not counting guys that were great players in their day like Tom Weiskopf or Chi Chi Rodriguez that may have been a bit overshadowed by others over time. I'd put that list of competition up against any era of golf and certainly against Tiger's fields in any time frame you care to use.

It's not so much nostalgia as it is I've just been around and seen a ton in the sport over the years, so there is some perspective and context that comes with getting old(er).

Jack was a chunky, flabby 46y/o compared to Tiger at 43--NO CONTEST! Yes, Tiger has had his various injuries and surgeries but can you tell how dedicated he his to keeping himself far more 'fit' than Jack ever was? Sure!

Yes, but Jack hadn't had a double-digit number of surgeries on his back, knees, etc. including significant structural surgery to his core (spinal fusion) like Tiger. I'd take overweight and not cut to having more metal in my body than Wolverine. Health isn't necessarily a bodybuilding contest; it's not the cosmetics that matter.

Also, it's worth noting that in 1963, using persimmon wood clubheads and the old rubber 3-piece golf balls, Jack could drive the ball 340+ yards. He was also a multiple sport athlete in his days prior to focusing on golf (I think he got recruited to play basketball at Ohio State or something like that), so it's not like he was John Daly or something. Also, he wasn't actually all that 'fat' until his much later playing days, he was just always a husky dude with a bigger frame. Standards have changed over time (and not for the better).

[scagwi]

Re: Jack's Record Is Safe

Agree to disagree I guess.

[lowpaiddonkey10]

Re: Jack's Record Is Safe

Very difficult to say who was the greatest in any sport really with one exception. Baseball. Babe Ruth hit and pitched. Other than that just about everything is up for discussion.



Jack played against some major greats throughout his career. At any rate the way things are going now neither of these two great"s records will be threatened since the game is going to become more international than ever.

[ncp10]

Re: Jack's Record Is Safe

Jack's competition over the course of his career included Arnold Palmer, Tom Watson, Lee Trevino, Johnny Miller, Seve Ballesteros, Nick Faldo, Greg Norman, Tony Jacklin, Tommy Bolt, Gary Player....I mean, the list goes on. And those are just the Hall of Famers! That's not counting guys that were great players in their day like Tom Weiskopf or Chi Chi Rodriguez that may have been a bit overshadowed by others over time. I'd put that list of competition up against any era of golf and certainly against Tiger's fields in any time frame you care to use.

It's not so much nostalgia as it is I've just been around and seen a ton in the sport over the years, so there is some perspective and context that comes with getting old(er).

Those names are what they are very much as a function of how small the field of players was relative to today's talent filtering all the way from organizations like AJGA that did not even start until Jack was 40y/o. Here are some relevant stats to put this in perspective and Tiger is still winning and in fact despite his surgeries won twice in 2019 at age 43. Don't forget Tiger was effectively out of commission for a good 4y w/ his psychosocial problems and health problems:

PGA Tour Player of the Year: Tiger--11x Jack--5x
PGA Tour Leading Money Winner: Tiger--10x Jack--8x
PGA Tour Events Won: Tiger--82(!) Jack--73x

Golf's old stars competed in a smaller, less capable field in general. Heck even Slammin' Sammy won a good part of his wins in the pre and post WWII time when the number of players absolutely paled in comparison to today. This starts were largely also hyped big time by the media of the day as the field was on the whole less capable than it is today. And that is a function of the scale of development of young players today that hardly existed in Jack's era. Norman didn't even start playing regularly until his mid teens. While you point to equipment you've ignored how much harder today's course have been made to offset shot distances. I'd put any of today's top players against the old list of top players and put my money on the new players it's just a function of training and opportunity.

Anyway, chunky Jack was clearly the best player in the field in his day. Tiger is the best total player of all time and his record proves it, and he's not done yet golf hopes. Had he not derailed due to too much success early on and not enough counseling to help him cope with ensuing stardom in an era when he made golf incredibly popular to watch and follow he already would have met Jack's majors record and likely surpassed it.

The title of this thread to me captures an anti-Tiger bias just look at it: "Jack's record is safe". Sort of sounds like whomever started it hoped it would be the case. And besides, it's only ONE record we're talking about. You can see Tiger handsomely whipped Jack in the other records, and he's not done yet.

[scagwi]

Re: Jack's Record Is Safe

I'm in agreement with NCP above..
Great post

[kehlis]

Re: Jack's Record Is Safe

Very difficult to say who was the greatest in any sport really with one exception. Baseball. Babe Ruth hit and pitched. Other than that just about everything is up for discussion.



Jack played against some major greats throughout his career. At any rate the way things are going now neither of these two great"s records will be threatened since the game is going to become more international than ever.

What does it becoming more international than ever have anything to do with someone never being able to come close to them?

I don't disagree but for very different reasons. Almost all sports are more international now than they ever were.

[bigkev]

Re: Jack's Record Is Safe

The field at the top was a lot tougher in Jack's time, it's not even close. They're all mentally weak these days, we just saw it again at the Masters. They all just gift-wrapped the green jacket to Tiger after they hit them in the water at 12th when the going got tough.

It's no wonder the oldies were all laughing at them a few years back when these guys were all whining it was intimidating playing against Tiger and his crowd. Waaaaa, waaaaa, the crowd is meannnnnnn, waaaaa waaaaa, it's intimidating. Bunch of wimps, just happy and proud to make some top 10s in tournaments which the oldies were all laughing at too. No wonder either, top 50 on the money list all have well over 2M in earning in a season. Top 100, well over 1M, all fat cats. They didn't make lots of money in the old days, they were playing to win because it was everything. We have primadonna today that don't even want to pay their caddies after winning well over 1M in a tournament, and then we wonder why golf is going down the toilet with the regular folks, golf courses are closing everywhere and golf games are not selling.

Even Koepka call them a bunch of wuss, mentally weak at every Majors. Old Tom Watson closing to hundred years old almost beat all of these wimps at The Open. All they do these days is whine about course setup and the bad weather. It's so unfairrrrr waaaaa waaaaaa, whine, whine, whine.

So yeah, I give Tiger a good chance to win more Majors playing against all those mentally weak pro golfers of today, with the exception of Koepka.

[scagwi]

Re: Jack's Record Is Safe

Wow.
Tell us how you really feel there BigKev!

Lol

[lowpaiddonkey10]

Re: Jack's Record Is Safe

What does it becoming more international than ever have anything to do with someone never being able to come close to them?

I don't disagree but for very different reasons. Almost all sports are more international now than they ever were.

Any idea what the population is in China and other Asian countries who are now starting to play? Sports in general will see more international competitors. I was watching the World Track and Field Championships and noticed a whole lot more world class Chinese runners.



More world class in anything means it will become harder to dominate therefore the records set by Jack and Tiger will not be gettable.

[ncp10]

Re: Jack's Record Is Safe

The field at the top was a lot tougher in Jack's time, it's not even close. They're all mentally weak these days, we just saw it again at the Masters.
Even Koepka call them a bunch of wuss, mentally weak at every Majors.

So yeah, I give Tiger a good chance to win more Majors playing against all those mentally weak pro golfers of today, with the exception of Koepka.

You fell for Koepka's well-placed messaging what a crock of crap, and he was another one of the wusses who fell by the wayside at the Masters. Go have a look at Justin Thomas at age 26 w/ 11 PGA tour wins including a major, Dustin Johnson, Xander Shauffele, Justin Rose, Rory Mcilroy, Stenson, Poulter, Snedeker, Ram, Fenau, Molinari and many many more. Your analysis is a categorical COS!