*** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

[CMH]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

I know that, but look at what I am saying.

He was on flight 815 and crashed.

He then went back into time and talked to Widmore and Alpert, who then apprantly guided him to be on flight 815.

Why would they need to guide him, he was on flight 815 regardless or he wouldn't have gone back in time to meet them. He needed no guiding as it was already a fact he was/will be on flight 815.

The fact that they guided him onto flight 815 makes me believe that he was on the island, left, and then was guided to flight 815 so he could return. In other words, if the crash of flight 815 was Locke's 1st visit to the island, how would they have known to guide him there? He didn't go back in time until after he crashed.

Thats where I need to get some clarification. I have a feeling that when the flight 815 crash occurred, Locke flashed and the other Losties crashed.

But, they guided him before Locke went back in time.

Maybe I'm confusing your words. Either way, you bring up a good point.

In the order things have "happened":

1. Alpert visits a young Locke.
2. Abaddon guides Locke to the walk-about.
3. Locke crashes on the Island (flight 815)
4. Locke goes back to 1954 and speaks to Alpert and Widmore.
5. Locke crashes on the Island again (flight 316)

That order is confusing because Alpert shouldn't have known to visit a young Locke unless Locke had already spoken to him in 1954.

The way I think of time, this would mean that the Losties being in 1977 has already happened and now they are "experiencing" it. I tend to think of time travel as having been something that was going to happen. So you don't really change time. You were going to "change" it regardless.

I'm not sure if this is where Lost is going with all this. Since 1954 passed when Locke was a young boy, Alpert had already met the older Locke. Now in 2004, Locke travels to 1954 to experience that time jump. He didn't alter a thing. He had already done it. But, he still needed to experience it himself at that specific point in time.

I guess I'm also trying to understand the same issue. Perhaps, Abaddon and Alpert were worried that time could change, so they needed to push Locke to get on that flight. On their end they're thinking, "This needs to happen or we're doomed."

Or, that's just how things happened. Even though they know Locke traveled to 1954, they still need to tell him to get on that flight. If they don't tell him then he doesn't do it. Just because it's already happened doesn't mean that time doesn't need a cause for an effect.

You could travel back in time from 2008 and visit me in 1985 and tell me that I need to drop a letter off to you in 1995. When 1995 comes, I'll drop that letter off to you, but when 2008 comes around (for me) you still need to jump back in time to tell me what to do in 1995. If you don't, then you would create a time paradox, where what happened couldn't happen. So, even though the 2008 traveling you did receive the letter in 1995, you know that traveling to 1985 is what gave me reason to even drop off that letter. You still need to visit me.


I might have made that more confusing.

[fistofrage]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

But, they guided him before Locke went back in time.

Maybe I'm confusing your words. Either way, you bring up a good point.

In the order things have "happened":

1. Alpert visits a young Locke.
2. Abaddon guides Locke to the walk-about.
3. Locke crashes on the Island (flight 815)
4. Locke goes back to 1954 and speaks to Alpert and Widmore.
5. Locke crashes on the Island again (flight 316)

That order is confusing because Alpert shouldn't have known to visit a young Locke unless Locke had already spoken to him in 1954.

The way I think of time, this would mean that the Losties being in 1977 has already happened and now they are "experiencing" it. I tend to think of time travel as having been something that was going to happen. So you don't really change time. You were going to "change" it regardless.

I'm not sure if this is where Lost is going with all this. Since 1954 passed when Locke was a young boy, Alpert had already met the older Locke. Now in 2004, Locke travels to 1954 to experience that time jump. He didn't alter a thing. He had already done it. But, he still needed to experience it himself at that specific point in time.

I guess I'm also trying to understand the same issue. Perhaps, Abaddon and Alpert were worried that time could change, so they needed to push Locke to get on that flight. On their end they're thinking, "This needs to happen or we're doomed."

But they couldn't have known to visit Locke if Locke hadn't crashed and gone back in time. The crash happened first. I'm certain.

Point A, the beginning of all of this is when flight 815 crashed. Regardless if they jump backward or forward, that crash happened. Period. Locke knows it, Ben knows it, the Losties know it. Otherwise you are saying now that the past can be completely re-written and memories erased. That wouldn't seem consistant.

So the only explanation is Locke was somehow on the island before, and they got him to get on flight 815 by guiding him to that flight the same way the Losties were just guided onto the recent flight that crashed.

The way Locke woke up and he could walk definitely makes me think he flashed while the others crashed. Locke was on the island before and flight 815 was his avenue back.

I'm sticking with this until I see different, otherwise the whole story blows up.

In fact the other Losties could just be a cast of characters that were subconsciously driven to get on flight 815 as a replictation of a previous group that found the island. Just like they had to replicate flight 815 as close as possible. Just like there is a whole new group of Losties now that just crashed(not that we'll see much on their story).

[CMH]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

I added more in an edit that I think makes more sense.

[CMH]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

I can't agree with you that he was there before. I think 2003 Locke never knew he visited the Island back in 1954. He finds that out through his travels. Locke wouldn't be talking about faith and how this was supposed to happen if he knew it was going to happen. Locke of previous seasons doesn't sound like a guy who is just stopping by again. It sounds like a guy who wants to stay because he thinks he might have purpose.

[fistofrage]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

I can't agree with you that he was there before. I think 2003 Locke never knew he visited the Island back in 1954. He finds that out through his travels. Locke wouldn't be talking about faith and how this was supposed to happen if he knew it was going to happen. Locke of previous seasons doesn't sound like a guy who is just stopping by again. It sounds like a guy who wants to stay because he thinks he might have purpose.

Your letter example. If I go back to 1985 and tell you to mail a letter, 2008 time jump still occurred 1st, then I went back, and now I remember the converstaion in 2008. In 2007 I have no recollection of telling you to mail the letter.

Like them visiting Desmond on their time jump, he didn't remember it until present day he woke up from a slaeep and remembered. If your scenario existed Desmond would have had knowledge of the whole thing at the time he saw the Losties, but he didn't.

I would agree with you that it doesn't make sense that Locke was on the island before because he was born in the U.S. from what we know, but there is an inconsistancy forming here. And it may be that they are having a hard time completely explaining their theory of time travel through a story like this.

I'm sticking to Locke flashed, the Losties crashed.

[CMH]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

Your letter example. If I go back to 1985 and tell you to mail a letter, 2008 time jump still occurred 1st, then I went back, and now I remember the converstaion in 2008. In 2007 I have no recollection of telling you to mail the letter.

Like them visiting Desmond on their time jump, he didn't remember it until present day he woke up from a slaeep and remembered. If your scenario existed Desmond would have had knowledge of the whole thing at the time he saw the Losties, but he didn't.

I would agree with you that it doesn't make sense that Locke was on the island before because he was born in the U.S. from what we know, but there is an inconsistancy forming here. And it may be that they are having a hard time completely explaining their theory of time travel through a story like this.

I'm sticking to Locke flashed, the Losties crashed.

That's the part I left out. I knew I was forgetting something.

Yes, before you jumped in 2008 to tell me about the letter, you had no idea that you would do that. So, the jump came first. You are correct.

But, what I mean is that according to time, you visited me first (Locke visited the Island in 1954). Then in 1995 I handed you a letter. 1995 You is confused. "Why are you giving me this?" I say, "You visited me in 1985 and told me to." (Locke ends up on the Island in 2003). Then 2008 comes around and for some reason you realize you need to visit me in 1985 to tell me to drop off that letter. (Abaddon visits Locke and tells him to go on the walk-about so that he could end up on flight 815).

Whether or not you knew in 1998 or 2001 or whenever that you visited me in 1985 is not important because that time has not actually happened yet when you visit me in 1985. This is where time just gets confusing. But, this is how I see time travel. It happens because it was supposed to.

The only thing Alpert knows is that Locke visited him in 1954. He knows that something drew Locke there. But, whatever it is is not within his actual power. No matter what decisions he makes, he's going to end up drawing Locke to the Island because Locke couldn't visit him in 1954 unless he did draw him to the Island. So, he could take the Faraday approach and think he's manipulating time, but in actuality he isn't. You never can. When you think you're going against what's already happened, you're just doing what was going to happen anyway. You only think you're changing time.

Faraday experiences this with the death of Charlotte. He thinks he can tell her to not visit the Island ever again, but she does anyway. She tells him: I saw you when I was a child, you as old as you are now, tell me not to ever come back. So skip forward to when he ends up in 1974 and he sees a young Charlotte running around. Daniel is going to tell her to not come back to the Island. Why? Because he doesn't want her to die. Charlotte knows this happened because she saw Faraday do this in 1974. Daniel just hasn't "experienced" that yet because his current state hasn't physically made that jump to 1974. Without realizing it, he's just doing what time wants. He's not changing a thing. That is, unless, he takes that knowledge and doesn't say anything to her (we still don't know if that has happened). Though, I don't think that's the case because that would just cause a time paradox. If he doesn't tell Charlotte then Charlotte probably never comes back to the Island, and if she never comes back then he doesn't know to not tell her to not come back and it's just a total mind blow at that point.

The more confusing problem is Desmond. But, I think it's just like the Losties being in 1977. If all of this has happened already (which is my theory. All of this post is just a theory, obviously), then they just don't realize it's happened.

Faraday already knows that Desmond is important. There's the notebook where he writes that Desmond is his constant. Why write that? And it's because Faraday had already visited Desmond to tell him to visit his mother and help his friends. Faraday just doesn't know this yet because he hasn't "experienced" telling him.

Desmond on the other hand wakes up realizing that it happened only because that's the point in "time" in which Daniel physically makes the jump to tell him. Much like the letter in 1995, he doesn't understand Faraday's message. Then in 2007 Desmond remembers that it happened because that's when it was physically told to him. Daniel may be jumping through time, but his "real time" is still 2007.

Well, that's where I'm coming from. Like I said in between all that mumble jumble: just my theory.

[fistofrage]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

That's the part I left out. I knew I was forgetting something.

Yes, before you jumped in 2008 to tell me about the letter, you had no idea that you would do that. So, the jump came first. You are correct.

But, what I mean is that according to time, you visited me first (Locke visited the Island in 1954). Then in 1995 I handed you a letter. 1995 You is confused. "Why are you giving me this?" I say, "You visited me in 1985 and told me to." (Locke ends up on the Island in 2003). Then 2008 comes around and for some reason you realize you need to visit me in 1985 to tell me to drop off that letter. (Abaddon visits Locke and tells him to go on the walk-about so that he could end up on flight 815).

Whether or not you knew in 1998 or 2001 or whenever that you visited me in 1985 is not important because that time has not actually happened yet when you visit me in 1985. This is where time just gets confusing. But, this is how I see time travel. It happens because it was supposed to.

The only thing Alpert knows is that Locke visited him in 1954. He knows that something drew Locke there. But, whatever it is is not within his actual power. No matter what decisions he makes, he's going to end up drawing Locke to the Island because Locke couldn't visit him in 1954 unless he did draw him to the Island. So, he could take the Faraday approach and think he's manipulating time, but in actuality he isn't. You never can. When you think you're going against what's already happened, you're just doing what was going to happen anyway. You only think you're changing time.

Faraday experiences this with the death of Charlotte. He thinks he can tell her to not visit the Island ever again, but she does anyway. She tells him: I saw you when I was a child, you as old as you are now, tell me not to ever come back. So skip forward to when he ends up in 1974 and he sees a young Charlotte running around. Daniel is going to tell her to not come back to the Island. Why? Because he doesn't want her to die. Charlotte knows this happened because she saw Faraday do this in 1974. Daniel just hasn't "experienced" that yet because his current state hasn't physically made that jump to 1974. Without realizing it, he's just doing what time wants. He's not changing a thing. That is, unless, he takes that knowledge and doesn't say anything to her (we still don't know if that has happened). Though, I don't think that's the case because that would just cause a time paradox. If he doesn't tell Charlotte then Charlotte probably never comes back to the Island, and if she never comes back then he doesn't know to not tell her to not come back and it's just a total mind blow at that point.

The more confusing problem is Desmond. But, I think it's just like the Losties being in 1977. If all of this has happened already (which is my theory. All of this post is just a theory, obviously), then they just don't realize it's happened.

Faraday already knows that Desmond is important. There's the notebook where he writes that Desmond is his constant. Why write that? And it's because Faraday had already visited Desmond to tell him to visit his mother and help his friends. Faraday just doesn't know this yet because he hasn't "experienced" telling him.

Desmond on the other hand wakes up realizing that it happened only because that's the point in "time" in which Daniel physically makes the jump to tell him. Much like the letter in 1995, he doesn't understand Faraday's message. Then in 2007 Desmond remembers that it happened because that's when it was physically told to him. Daniel may be jumping through time, but his "real time" is still 2007.

Well, that's where I'm coming from. Like I said in between all that mumble jumble: just my theory.

I like your post, good work. You could be right about Alpert and Widmore trying to manipulate time, but in the end it doesn't matter because what has happened has happened. But that doesn't really fly either because now we have pictures of the Losties in 1977 and Jin didn't even know how tto speak much English in 2004 when the 815 crashed. In your scenario if things were going to be the same regardless, Jin would have to have broken English again come the crash of 815.

But all I can say is that regardless of when it is, the Losties know about the crash. It doesn't matter what year it is, they know about the crash.

So by that Faraday would know his contact with Desmond even if he hasn't "experienced" it yet chronologically.

I don't know.......At least I'm intrigued to see how this plays out. I bet there will be a few holes when all is said and done.

[CMH]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

Yea, the picture is a problem.

I don't think Jin speaking good English is since that's more a result of him learning the language through time.

Jin in 1974 is still Jin from 2003. He's just in 1977 now because he's stuck there.

[fistofrage]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

Yea, the picture is a problem.

I don't think Jin speaking good English is since that's more a result of him learning the language through time.

Jin in 1974 is still Jin from 2003. He's just in 1977 now because he's stuck there.

Yeah but Jin speaking English is a bit of a factor.....If the lesson is you can't change the outcome, meaning Locke was going to crash on flight 815 no matter what, then what that is saying is that regardless of the means, we'll meet the same end. So Jin would also be on this plane in 2004, but now he knows English and when they crash he doesn't have conflicts because he doesn't understand English like he did with Michael. Butterfly effect, but either way History has changed.

Which circles me back to my original point.

If History can be changed, then I think it implies Locke was there once before the 815 crash and Widmore, Alpert, etc did things that guided Locke onto the 815 flight. And he flashed and the Losties crashed.

There was a flash right when the plane when over right?

We shall see. Should be fun.

[CMH]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

Ah, based on my theory, Jin now in 1977 isn't the same Jin that'll fly in 2003 on Flight 815.

He is the Jin from after that flight.

Jin's timeline:

1. Born
2. Crashes on Island in 2003
3. Travels back to 1977
4. Dies

The world time line (or how things are seen by the third person):

1. Birth
2. Jin chilling in 1977
3. Jin crashing in 2003
4. Death

Not sure if that makes sense. So, based on that, Jin wouldn't know English in the crash. Jin in 2003 hasn't been to 1977 yet. And 1977 Jin (who is actually older than 2003 Jin) is just moving along in his life.

So, yes, if 1977 Jin is alive in 2003, then he could potentially run into his former self based on my theory.

[CMH]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

I think you're leaning mostly on history changing. I'm leaning toward history being constant.

[p_rushing]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

I'll add a little bit. Time is relative to the person.

Locke- Locke in the past, doesn't know anything about Alpert. Only Alpert knows because it just happened to him in 1950s. The version of Locke that knows is not in the 1950s any more, he jumped into today. Locke won't know unless he jumps into his past or someone else does and tells him.

Desmond- Faraday was in the past on the island and told Desmond to go see his mother. That Desmond was not the one we saw on the island, because Faraday did not tell him that until after Desmond had already left the island in current time. If we saw the past version of Desmond on the island continue the story from there, he would at that point remember because it just happened. The current version of Desmond didn't remember because it hadn't happened yet.

Jin- In 2004, he doesn't know English. He goes back in time to 1974 and he learns it for 3 years and in 1977, he is basically fluent. Now the 2004 Jin still doesn't know English because again, that isn't the same Jin and it hasn't happened to 2004 Jin yet.


It might be easier if you think about it as going into the future. Say you go into the future and meet a girl and get married and have a family. You then go back to the present point in time that you left. You then meet the same girl, you know everything that will happen, she has no clue. Its the same way for Locke and Jin. Future Locke and Jin (Future Jin happens to be in 1977) know what will happen, but since nothing has happened to their past version, their past versions are clueless.

[fistofrage]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

I think you're leaning mostly on history changing. I'm leaning toward history being constant.

Thats one of my questions......

But if Locke went back in time and told Alpert where he could find him, and now Alpert acts on that, hasn't history been changed?

Take Locke's flashback when he met Alpert as a child.....

Did that flashback occur because Locke told Alpert when & where to find him?

I say yes because the way Locke phrased his talk. He told Alpert where Alpert could find him as a child. He didn't say to Alpert, "We'll meet when I'm a child".

See what I'm saying?

[peteykirch]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

LMFAO

Giving Sayid the Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test.

[highheatkingsb]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

HOLY ****!!!!!