Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

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  • DonkeyJote
    All Star
    • Jul 2003
    • 9189

    #706
    Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

    Originally posted by Blzer
    Am I the only one who thought Episode VI had the same second half deal as Episode IV as well, though? It's all related to destroying the big bad enemy and their home base.
    If you look at it like that, yes, but that's a very broad brush to paint it with. In 4, blowing up the base just kinda happens at the end in 3rd Act, and everything is unfolding in a space battle. But most of the movie is about them trying to deliver the plans, and then trying to eacape the Death Star. In 6, it's what moves the plot, and after they get Han, is the main plot of the story, and is a 3 pronged thing, with the space battle being the least of the 3, and the main storyline being the Emperor trying to turn Luke to the darkside. So, while the rebels are again trying to destroy a space station, the way everything unfolds is drastically different.

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    • DonkeyJote
      All Star
      • Jul 2003
      • 9189

      #707
      Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

      Originally posted by Dogslax41
      Saw it a second time and picked up on a couple different things.
      Spoiler
      I'm dropping the spoilers henceforth. If it's a problem, let me know, and I'll come back and edit.

      It wouldn't surprise me at all the Ren has communicated with Vader. We know from the end of Jedi that he also knew how to communicate from beyond death when he appeared with Obi-Wan and Yoda. And, possible Episode 8 spoiler, so I'm hiding it:
      Spoiler


      Saw an article today about Rey being a "Mary Sue" which is a new term for me. Essentially, it originated in fan fics as a representation of the author that was unusually important and powerful in relation to established characters, and has come to mean a female character that is overly powerful. This article pretty much said that it was sexist to say that this described Rey. It bugged me because the reasoning just showed a lack of knowledge, or even a lack of viewing, the original films. Particularly with how it says Luke was showing "strong mastery of the force" by the end of the first movie. Which is just false. After rudimentary training by Obi-Wan, and with over the shoulder guidence, Luke was able to use the force to expand on his already exceptional flying skills. Rey, with as far as we know none of that, uses a Jedi Mind trick and calls a lightsaber to her hand. I think overall, she's a good character, and hopefully the expand on that, but she is remarkablely more advanced than either Skywalker early on, both of whom are supposed to be incredibly powerful force users. Defeating Kylo in their duel is one thing because of all of the other factors. But using the force like that without even knowing that's what she's doing is absolutely a "Mary sue"?

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      • Blzer
        Resident film pundit
        • Mar 2004
        • 42520

        #708
        Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

        Originally posted by DonkeyJote
        If you look at it like that, yes, but that's a very broad brush to paint it with. In 4, blowing up the base just kinda happens at the end in 3rd Act, and everything is unfolding in a space battle. But most of the movie is about them trying to deliver the plans, and then trying to eacape the Death Star. In 6, it's what moves the plot, and after they get Han, is the main plot of the story, and is a 3 pronged thing, with the space battle being the least of the 3, and the main storyline being the Emperor trying to turn Luke to the darkside. So, while the rebels are again trying to destroy a space station, the way everything unfolds is drastically different.
        I mean you're definitely right and all of that is true, but I'm sitting here wondering why people are calling Episode VII basically a repainting of Episode IV. I guess Rey discovering the force must be a part of it... but her interactions with Han came way differently, and... I don't know, I just didn't see what most others saw in that, I guess. At least, not without saying that Episode VI wasn't trying to accomplish the same goal.

        But you're right, different way they went all about it for sure. I thought that all three films had weak ways of going about trying to defeat the enemy though.
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        • DonkeyJote
          All Star
          • Jul 2003
          • 9189

          #709
          Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

          Originally posted by Blzer
          I mean you're definitely right and all of that is true, but I'm sitting here wondering why people are calling Episode VII basically a repainting of Episode IV. I guess Rey discovering the force must be a part of it... but her interactions with Han came way differently, and... I don't know, I just didn't see what most others saw in that, I guess. At least, not without saying that Episode VI wasn't trying to accomplish the same goal.

          But you're right, different way they went all about it for sure. I thought that all three films had weak ways of going about trying to defeat the enemy though.
          Force Awakens is a lot closer, plot point for plot point. There's a battle between Rebels/Resistance and Empire/First Order that leads to a character, probably the #3 main character, hiding important data into a droid and sending it into the desert, and getting captured by the main antagonist. That character is rescued later (by Han/Luke/Chewy and by Finn). This droid happens upon a character who is thus inserted into the conflict, and takes on the quest to deliver the droid to the rebellion/resistance. The main characters meet someone who acts as a mentor to the main protagonist (Obi-Wan/Han), who later dies to the main antagonist, whom they have a close, personal relationship with (Vader/Kylo), without too much of a fight, and the main protagonist witnesses it. One of the main characters (Han/Finn) decide at one point they've done enough, and decide to set off on their own (Han to pay Jabba, Finn to escape the First Order) before having a change of heart and coming back to save the main character. Meanwhile, the main antagonist organization has a super weapon they use initially on civilian targets, and then discover the rebel/resistance base, and turn the weapon to it with a countdown. The weapon is then destroyed from inside. There's even them breaking into the battle station to save the damsel, though Rey breaks out on her own.

          Still love the movie, and I think the characters themselves have extremely different personalities than their original trilogy counterparts, but the structure of the story they're telling is very similar. They aren't alone, though. Movies have used the Star Wars format before. Look at the first 3 Pirates of the Caribbean movies. Dead Man's Chest and At World's End have a lot of similarities with Empire and Jedi. The popular book Eragon and it's sequel (Eldest, I think?) are insanely similar to New Hope and Empire. It's a fairly standard epic storytelling structure, particularly in modern filmmaking. Doesn't make it bad, or unoriginal, imo. It's what you do inside that structure that makes a story special.

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          • BDKiiing
            Best in the World
            • Jun 2008
            • 9334

            #710
            Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

            So why do we all think Rey is?
            I figure Luke's daughter is leading the way, but would have to go in a backstory for who the mother is and how they met leading to eventually Rey and why she was abandoned.

            Also could be Han and Leia's daughter, but not a twin, and that she was conceived while Han and Leia were still together, but born after they split and Han never knew. But she could have been born after Ben turned to the dark side so Leia thought it would be best to send Rey away and hidden like her and Luke were as babies.

            My other thought is Rey being Obi-Wan's granddaughter. They had the whole no love thing, but once everything goes to hell at the end of Revenge there's no more Jedi order. And that sometime he had a child who eventually had Rey. It would explain Obi-Wan's voice in Rey's flashback/cave scene when she first touches the lightsaber.
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            • DonkeyJote
              All Star
              • Jul 2003
              • 9189

              #711
              Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

              Originally posted by bdolski
              So why do we all think Rey is?
              I figure Luke's daughter is leading the way, but would have to go in a backstory for who the mother is and how they met leading to eventually Rey and why she was abandoned.

              Also could be Han and Leia's daughter, but not a twin, and that she was conceived while Han and Leia were still together, but born after they split and Han never knew. But she could have been born after Ben turned to the dark side so Leia thought it would be best to send Rey away and hidden like her and Luke were as babies.

              My other thought is Rey being Obi-Wan's granddaughter. They had the whole no love thing, but once everything goes to hell at the end of Revenge there's no more Jedi order. And that sometime he had a child who eventually had Rey. It would explain Obi-Wan's voice in Rey's flashback/cave scene when she first touches the lightsaber.
              I mentioned the Obi-Wan thing a bit back. There is also a strong implication in canon that Obi-Wan may have broken that rule himself, and also that he knew about Anakin and Padme well before he let on. I still think Rey is Luke's daughter if for no other reason than that the main trilogy movies to this point have been about the Skywalkers, and the way the lightsaber that at one point belonged to Anakin and Luke reached out to her.

              As far as her being born after Ben turned to the darkside, how young are we thinking he turned? We don't know the character ages, but Adam Driver is only 9 years older than Daisy Ridley irl, and I'm not sure how much they could stretch that.

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              • kingkilla56
                Hall Of Fame
                • Jun 2009
                • 19395

                #712
                Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

                Kylo Ren speaks to helmet Vader and says something like "show me grampy Anakin, show me the power of the dark side again". The "again" inferring that Kylo has seen visions of Anakin before. We know dead Jedi can speak or reach out to the living. But why would Anakin come back and show his grandson how powerful the dark can truly be? Didn't Anakin cave into the light at the end of his life? Wouldn't Anakin warn Kylo about the path he was seeking in the dark? This tells me he isn't seeing visions from Anakin but rather a perverted vision of Anakin concocted by that bastard Master Snoke. Snoke sensed a hatred in Kylo over his father. Sensed natural power in the force. And knew to turn Kylo all he had to do is "send" him messages from "Anakin" showing the darkside as positive.

                Kylo is being manipulated the same way Anakin was by palpatine and when Kylo learns this, that he has been deceived into killing his father, into killing innocents, into waging war on his family, he will rage murder Snoke but likely die in the process, redeeming himself in the end and living up to his grandfathers legacy.

                /prediction
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                • DonkeyJote
                  All Star
                  • Jul 2003
                  • 9189

                  #713
                  Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

                  Could be. Or it could be him saying "show me" is just like the way people talk to dead relatives in our world, without any actual belief that they're going to talk back. It could be that h I saw focusing on the helmet is a form of dark side meditation for him.

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                  • Yeah...THAT Guy
                    Once in a Lifetime Memory
                    • Dec 2006
                    • 17294

                    #714
                    Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

                    Originally posted by Dogslax41
                    Saw it a second time and picked up on a couple different things.
                    Spoiler
                    Assuming you're referring to the "Face me, cousin" thing, he doesn't actually say "cousin" at all.
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                    • Dogslax41
                      MVP
                      • Aug 2003
                      • 1901

                      #715
                      Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

                      Originally posted by Yeah...THAT Guy
                      Assuming you're referring to the "Face me, cousin" thing, he doesn't actually say "cousin" at all.
                      Yeah I saw that today. Pretty funny when people actually looked into it. When I read it I thought the line sounded kind of awkward and forced.

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                      • Yeah...THAT Guy
                        Once in a Lifetime Memory
                        • Dec 2006
                        • 17294

                        #716
                        Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

                        Originally posted by Dogslax41
                        Yeah I saw that today. Pretty funny when people actually looked into it. When I read it I thought the line sounded kind of awkward and forced.
                        Yeah, if you slow down the YouTube clip, you could pretty clearly tell that the "Face me!" and "Curses!" lines were two separate lines, and you could clearly tell that he wasn't saying "Cousin!".
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                        • TripleCrown9
                          Keep the Faith
                          • May 2010
                          • 23696

                          #717
                          Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

                          I can get behind the theory that Rey is Obi-Wan's granddaughter.
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                          • Fresh Tendrils
                            Strike Hard and Fade Away
                            • Jul 2002
                            • 36131

                            #718
                            Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

                            I need an Obi-Wan on Maury parody if that does indeed come true.

                            I would love for Rey to be of no relation whatsover, but I know that's largely impossible with the central story.



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                            • DickDalewood
                              All Star
                              • Aug 2010
                              • 6263

                              #719
                              Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

                              Welp, finally saw it... amazing!

                              That is all.

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                              • jasontoddwhitt
                                MVP
                                • May 2003
                                • 8095

                                #720
                                Re: Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

                                Took my father to see The Force Awakens. Normally, when you ask him if he likes something, his go to response is it was ok. His response today..."I wouldn't care to see that again."

                                That right there is a rare seal of approval.
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