Ouch 2K Sports....

[grunt]

Re: Ouch 2K Sports....

LOL, maybe this old geezer just expected to much from these developers. Or maybe, it's not me that's old, and none of us are that old, it's THEM that are old and way past their prime in developing games

Post of the year.

[Pared]

Re: Ouch 2K Sports....

LOL, maybe this old geezer just expected to much from these developers. Or maybe, it's not me that's old, and none of us are that old, it's THEM that are old and way past their prime in developing games

It's all the high promises that were made: CGI-style graphics and amazing AI with the new "highly capable next gen systems!"

Remember the Madden trailer? The 2k trailer with LeBron?

I think Heavenly Sword was the only game that has matched their promises in terms of delivering the graphical quality we were expecting.

All facets of gaming haven't progressed at the same rate. It's kind of sad.

[mgoblue]

Re: Ouch 2K Sports....

I personally find it very amusing that people think this current gen is worse than last gen...While I remember NFL 2k5 fondly, I'll also let you know that memory and fondness isn't perfect. Tecmo Bowl and Baseball Stars were awesome...when I was 10. I'm not 10 anymore, and while those games hold some very fond memories, to say that we're lacking now compared to the past just makes me laugh.

Sure, the games aren't perfect...they never have been and never will. As sports games started getting more complex the AI has to get better and better. I've taken a high level AI programming class in college, that class kicked my *** hardcore. AI isn't easy, and we'll have fun but flawed games for years to come.

If I were you pjv31, I'd start playing some of the other non sports games that can start to reach that perfection you want. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. I honestly don't play sports games as much as I used to. Football games just don't do it for me as much anymore (not because of EA, 2k games got this way for me too). Especially with all the nitpicking online, I seriously wonder if the internet community ruins sports games, but that's for a different thread.

I feel your pain, but games truly are getting better, just not at the level you expected. I think we're hitting a bit of a wall, probably in the AI side, and it sucks...Just pick up Mass Effect, Assassin's Creed, Super Mario Galaxy, or one of the other great non-sports titles out there.

Here's a post I made in a "I should be in gamer heaven...But I'm not" thread

More because I personally think this is an AI issue. Programming AI is hard. Everyone needs to realize that they're trying to recreate what HUMANS do, how we think, etc. Graphics, all the rest have taken huge jumps, but now we're more at AI limitations, and those barriers aren't as easily broken.

You can throw newer, faster chips at the graphics engines and they'll run better. It's way easier to make new graphics stuff that looks great and takes advantage of it...On the other hand, even if you have crazy fast CPU's, some human has to had figured out the AI for a DB, QB, etc and make them think like a person. All the tech upgrades in the world won't help that until we understand how to program it.

[born_bad]

Re: Ouch 2K Sports....

Here's a post I made in a "I should be in gamer heaven...But I'm not" thread

More because I personally think this is an AI issue. Programming AI is hard. Everyone needs to realize that they're trying to recreate what HUMANS do, how we think, etc. Graphics, all the rest have taken huge jumps, but now we're more at AI limitations, and those barriers aren't as easily broken.

It's true. I've said before that because the games are *looking* more and more realistic, people expect them to actually *be* more realistic. It's not going to happen because what happens on a football field, hockey rink, basketball court, etc. in real life is so complicated and so unpredictable, it's insanely difficult to try and program all the possibilities and have it be 100% believable.

We have hit a wall with AI, it seems. Animations are getting better (NBA 2k8) but at the cost of the user feeling less control (canned animation complaint). It's a tricky time for sports games. I understand the problem and don't disrespect the job developers are doing. I just have to admit that I'm growing bored with the genre because they're not really going anywhere aside from graphics.

AI aside, these games should and could have much better presentation. Better presentation could be done on the XBox, PS2, Dreamcast, etc. so it's not a limitation of the current consoles. The fact that the current Madden's, NHL 08, and NBA2k games have lack of immersive presentation, doesn't help me ignore the fact that I'm getting bored with the actual gameplay. If they created a more immersive presentationd, I'd likely stay more interested. Why have all these sports games done away with pop-up stats? I loved seeing stuff like that. I remeber playing NHL 98 on the PC and it had better presentation, stats presentation, etc. than 08. There's not much of an excuse for that.

[luv_mist]

Re: Ouch 2K Sports....

The 2K6 trailer with Lebron didn't meet that year, but it has imo surpassed it with 2K8 at least. Honestly, I remember a couple of articles that I read about EA bleeding too much money and pushing to make their own original IP. Remember that they signed Steven Spielberg to produce about two original IPs for them. They let the Bond license go because the game didn't sell squat. Another thing that has to be observed is the fact that they purchased Bioware because of their potential to give them money, not only with titles Bioware could produce but also because of their technology. I think they're considering using some of Bioware's technology for their White Council title as well as some other games eventually coming out.

It's true. I've said before that because the games are *looking* more and more realistic, people expect them to actually *be* more realistic. It's not going to happen because what happens on a football field, hockey rink, basketball court, etc. in real life is so complicated and so unpredictable, it's insanely difficult to try and program all the possibilities and have it be 100% believable.

We have hit a wall with AI, it seems. Animations are getting better (NBA 2k8) but at the cost of the user feeling less control (canned animation complaint). It's a tricky time for sports games. I understand the problem and don't disrespect the job developers are doing. I just have to admit that I'm growing bored with the genre because they're not really going anywhere aside from graphics.

AI aside, these games should and could have much better presentation. Better presentation could be done on the XBox, PS2, Dreamcast, etc. so it's not a limitation of the current consoles. The fact that the current Madden's, NHL 08, and NBA2k games have lack of immersive presentation, doesn't help me ignore the fact that I'm getting bored with the actual gameplay. If they created a more immersive presentationd, I'd likely stay more interested. Why have all these sports games done away with pop-up stats? I loved seeing stuff like that. I remeber playing NHL 98 on the PC and it had better presentation, stats presentation, etc. than 08. There's not much of an excuse for that.

Clearly, they aren't focusing on the whole meal for gamers which sucks. So many games could have better replay value and immersion factors if they spent a couple of weeks recording sounds and audio files.

[fistofrage]

Re: Ouch 2K Sports....

Here's a post I made in a "I should be in gamer heaven...But I'm not" thread

More because I personally think this is an AI issue. Programming AI is hard. Everyone needs to realize that they're trying to recreate what HUMANS do, how we think, etc. Graphics, all the rest have taken huge jumps, but now we're more at AI limitations, and those barriers aren't as easily broken.

I have to disagree here. My main complaints with College Hoops and NCAA Football are things we had fixed in previous versions.

In College Hoops, the AI used to commit non-shooting fouls, take charges, go for steals, etc. 2K6 had it pretty much down on the PS2.

College football would have been perfect this year on the PS2, but FG's have been automatic for 2 years-the AI and human could actually miss in 2006. And the pursuit angles are messed up, they run to a point behind the ball carrier. That was not a problem in 2007. Now for the 360 version, its just all around worse than the PS2 version, except you can miss Fg's and the pursuit angles are better, but the turnovers ruin the game and sliders won't fix it.

So basically, clean up the problems before adding gimmicks. I am sure adding a gimmick causes a domino effect that ruins everything else. Just fix the game to the point that it does the thing right that it used to do. I am not asking for anything new, I'm not asking them to reinvent anything. I am just asking them to fix what they broke because it wasn't broke before.

[bkfount]

Re: Ouch 2K Sports....

It's all the high promises that were made: CGI-style graphics and amazing AI with the new "highly capable next gen systems!"

Remember the Madden trailer? The 2k trailer with LeBron?

I think Heavenly Sword was the only game that has matched their promises in terms of delivering the graphical quality we were expecting.

All facets of gaming haven't progressed at the same rate. It's kind of sad.

I haven't played heavenly sword, but it's not the only game to look incredible. Come on.

As for promises, it was just marketing hype to get us excited. I imagine tons of people don't remember the EA Next Gen Madden commercial. It was conveniently reported around the ps2 launch that Sadam was going to use the power of it to lauch missiles.

No game has delivered on the next gen promises of super AI. We were supposed to get dedicated processors for AI, and all we get is some bigger crowds and the same last gen NPC AI. The issue is, with high development costs and focus on graphics, you're going to get the same type of AI and gameplay problems of last gen.

[luv_mist]

Re: Ouch 2K Sports....

For sports, I am at the forefront with pushing these companies to have two year cycles instead of one so we can increase the potential for what we get. Hell, getting the updates over XBL or PSN would be wonderful. They could make minimal updates like an animation add here, and additional slider here, updated commentary, updated stats, and other little things for around $15. The next year, they could put out the full game and we could enjoy the additional things they add. That way they don't have to have dead time from the shipping and making it gold and stuff. That's just my thought with these 1-year cycles.

[spankdatazz22]

Re: Ouch 2K Sports....

The two things that have hurt the sports games are exclusivity (primarily) and the expectation for yearly releases. We all know the drill - games like Mass Effect and Bioshock have had the benefit of being in development for years. We consumers expect the sports games to release every year - and some people even expect the last gen counterparts to be just as improved as improved as their current gen brothers. Imo it wasn't all that long ago when we were saying NBA Live's 10-man mo-cap was the way of the future - we hadn't had players moving around realistically on a court in a game like that and we extrapolated it out to football and other sports. Then 2K came with [their version of player movement] and continued to improve on it. When I look at NBA2K8 I see things being done in the AI that wasn't being done/wasn't possible in last gen - I think the game has progressed immensely, when taken as a whole (AI, crowds, arenas, etc.). People create tons of fan vids. I remember marvelling last year at how closely Allen Iverson's shot looked like his real life shot, for example. These are comparisons to real life that are being made.

Unfortunately series that took a hit because of exclusivity seem to be dragging down games that have advanced. Madden, for the obvious reason. MLB2K still suffers from the sad showing/disappointment of 2K6. From what I read, MLB the Show is the best baseball game to date - and people seem plenty excited about the potential of the NHL series. But we hear more about the disappointment of MLB2K than the success of The Show. I don't understand people citing APF as a huge disappointment when 2K was basically trying to make a football game with one hand tied behind their back. Imo if you slap NFL uniforms/logos and players into the game, it's faults are a lot more tolerable. I'm sure when Backbreaker comes out next year, the first thing many people here will try to do is create NFL uniform replicas.

Just saying that some of these expectations and problems are our own doing, collectively. I think Halo 3 is a fantastically entertaining game and I love it, yet even it is criticized for being too much like the original Halo. I'm sure the same complaint will get leveled against Gears II. Metroid, Zelda... prettier versions of what came before it. I'm sure DMC4 and GTA IV aren't going to rewrite what was done last gen. I'm not trying to defend the sports games; I think it's ridiculous Madden/NCAA are in the state they are. But I think all of next gen sports gaming gets an unfair bad rap because of our varying expectations

[Pared]

Re: Ouch 2K Sports....

I haven't played heavenly sword, but it's not the only game to look incredible. Come on.

As for promises, it was just marketing hype to get us excited. I imagine tons of people don't remember the EA Next Gen Madden commercial. It was conveniently reported around the ps2 launch that Sadam was going to use the power of it to lauch missiles.

No game has delivered on the next gen promises of super AI. We were supposed to get dedicated processors for AI, and all we get is some bigger crowds and the same last gen NPC AI. The issue is, with high development costs and focus on graphics, you're going to get the same type of AI and gameplay problems of last gen.

From the press events, that's the only game off the top of my head I can think of. I'm sure someone can make a case for others.

[burnwood]

Re: Ouch 2K Sports....

It's also b/c you're all getting older...

Doubtful here too because I'm enjoying Zelda The Phantom Hourglass on my DS...oh and along with Mass Effect. I'll probably finish that game in 100+ hours. The story is just too good and I pretty much read all the journals and Codex notes.

[GSW]

Re: Ouch 2K Sports....

2K sports go out of business, i will no longer buy any sports game. Ill be playing the latest 2K sport games for the rest of my life.

no you wont... be serious.

[LBzrule]

Re: Ouch 2K Sports....

I have to disagree here. My main complaints with College Hoops and NCAA Football are things we had fixed in previous versions.

In College Hoops, the AI used to commit non-shooting fouls, take charges, go for steals, etc. 2K6 had it pretty much down on the PS2.

College football would have been perfect this year on the PS2, but FG's have been automatic for 2 years-the AI and human could actually miss in 2006. And the pursuit angles are messed up, they run to a point behind the ball carrier. That was not a problem in 2007. Now for the 360 version, its just all around worse than the PS2 version, except you can miss Fg's and the pursuit angles are better, but the turnovers ruin the game and sliders won't fix it.

So basically, clean up the problems before adding gimmicks. I am sure adding a gimmick causes a domino effect that ruins everything else. Just fix the game to the point that it does the thing right that it used to do. I am not asking for anything new, I'm not asking them to reinvent anything. I am just asking them to fix what they broke because it wasn't broke before.

I think one of the key issues, is that most of the games do not have the fundamentals down. They can fix it this year, but not fundamentally, then the next year when they go adding something else it "breaks" the "fix" that they made the year before and it slips through because they thought they already "fixed" it. Some foundations may be shoddy and things will always go awry because once they "fix" something it breaks something else. So we get games that are bleeding and we wonder why or how they could have it fixed in an older version and not in the newest one. The key for the developers is to know WHY things like that are happening. Those with a sound structure in place can find out why. Those with shallow structures in place cannot and so we all have to deal with the yearly circus.

[DaveDQ]

Re: Ouch 2K Sports....

I think what we are seeing is that sports games took a hit when these new systems released. Even though we have new, more powerful hardware, there's nothing that's really jumping out and keeping a firm grip on my playing time. Many sports games seem so bland.

I've been playing NFL 2K5 on the 360 and I'm loving the complete game that it is. No, it's not perfect but it's a great example of what a sports video game should be. The question is, "Why hasn't 2K done this with any other of their games in next-gen?" MLB 2K7 is a very sound game (presentation wise), but why don't they add that superb presentation found in NFL 2K5 to a game like NBA 2K8?

I've thought this before but again, these games lack soul.

[bkfount]

Re: Ouch 2K Sports....

I think what we are seeing is that sports games took a hit when these new systems released. Even though we have new, more powerful hardware, there's nothing that's really jumping out and keeping a firm grip on my playing time. Many sports games seem so bland.

I've been playing NFL 2K5 on the 360 and I'm loving the complete game that it is. No, it's not perfect but it's a great example of what a sports video game should be. The question is, "Why hasn't 2K done this with any other of their games in next-gen?" MLB 2K7 is a very sound game (presentation wise), but why don't they add that superb presentation found in NFL 2K5 to a game like NBA 2K8?

I've thought this before but again, these games lack soul.

that stuff takes time to do. They never really were rewarded for their effort with amazing sales either. EA gets by with the bare minimum presentation and game atmosphere, and 2k followed the example with APF2k8.

Their CH2k games have an amazing weekly recap, with a long selection show that doesn't get repetitive during the show. It's amazing, but again, something I don't see them doing for all their sports sadly. They have the only multi-console MLB game around, why put in the extra effort.