Ouch 2K Sports....

[mgoblue]

Re: Ouch 2K Sports....

that stuff takes time to do. They never really were rewarded for their effort with amazing sales either. EA gets by with the bare minimum presentation and game atmosphere, and 2k followed the example with 2k8.

Their CH2k games have an amazing weekly recap, with a long selection show that doesn't get repetitive during the show. It's amazing, but again, something I don't see them doing for all their sports sadly. They have the only multi-console MLB game around, why put in the extra effort.

I hate to say it, but 95% of people just button push through cool post game videos, week recaps, etc. I usually watch them just a few times and then skip them.

More stat overlays and in game stuff is cool, but I think they do realize that a lot of the cool stuff on the side most people skip to get to the game or the franchise stuff.

[spankdatazz22]

Re: Ouch 2K Sports....

The question is, "Why hasn't 2K done this with any other of their games in next-gen?" MLB 2K7 is a very sound game (presentation wise), but why don't they add that superb presentation found in NFL 2K5 to a game like NBA 2K8?

I've thought this before but again, these games lack soul.

One, they no longer have the ESPN license. But I distinctly remember thinking the year after they lost the NFL/ESPN licenses when NBA2K6 came out, most of us remarked that presentation had improved even though the overlays were generic (outside of the Gatorade stuff). Somewhere over the past few years it seems expectations changed. I love the 2K5 halftime show and postgame interviews as much as anyone - but we should have an understanding on how these exclusivity contracts have affected sports games in general. It seems people are willing to fault 2K more for in their opinion not expanding on what they did w/2K5, than willing to fault EA for doing next to nothing with a tv license.

I can't say the number of times back when 2K5 and Madden were going at it where Madden fans (who were in huge abundance at the time) remarked how unimportant presentation was for a game.

"I'll just click through a replay"
"I don't need a halftime show"
"I that [stuff] is just fluff"

[bkfount]

Re: Ouch 2K Sports....

One, they no longer have the ESPN license. But I distinctly remember thinking the year after they lost the NFL/ESPN licenses when NBA2K6 came out, most of us remarked that presentation had improved even though the overlays were generic (outside of the Gatorade stuff). Somewhere over the past few years it seems expectations changed. I love the 2K5 halftime show and postgame interviews as much as anyone - but we should have an understanding on how these exclusivity contracts have affected sports games in general. It seems people are willing to fault 2K more for in their opinion not expanding on what they did w/2K5, than willing to fault EA for doing next to nothing with a tv license.

I can't say the number of times back when 2K5 and Madden were going at it where Madden fans (who were in huge abundance at the time) remarked how unimportant presentation was for a game.

"I'll just click through a replay"
"I don't need a halftime show"
"I that [stuff] is just fluff"

and 2k does it now. APF2k8 had guys on the sidelines and the occasioanly cutscene, but there was nothing for winning the season championship or doing anything special, just like EA games.

[mgoblue]

Re: Ouch 2K Sports....

One, they no longer have the ESPN license. But I distinctly remember thinking the year after they lost the NFL/ESPN licenses when NBA2K6 came out, most of us remarked that presentation had improved even though the overlays were generic (outside of the Gatorade stuff). Somewhere over the past few years it seems expectations changed. I love the 2K5 halftime show and postgame interviews as much as anyone - but we should have an understanding on how these exclusivity contracts have affected sports games in general. It seems people are willing to fault 2K more for in their opinion not expanding on what they did w/2K5, than willing to fault EA for doing next to nothing with a tv license.

I can't say the number of times back when 2K5 and Madden were going at it where Madden fans (who were in huge abundance at the time) remarked how unimportant presentation was for a game.

"I'll just click through a replay"
"I don't need a halftime show"
"I that [stuff] is just fluff"

I don't really watch the halftime shows much past the first few times...especially online.

The only times I've watched end of period NHL 08 replays were online playing goalie mode against Terry. Playing goalie mode makes you appreciate the toughness of stopping shots.

Otherwise I want to get back to playing the game.

Not taking away from the added touches, but I just personally don't watch them consistently, and I doubt I'm alone.

[rudyjuly2]

Re: Ouch 2K Sports....

I love presentation stuff like half time and post game shows. I got a PS2 HDD just so I could watch that stuff for 2K5 and never skipped them.

I will say that 2K made a huge mistake on the baseball license. They paid a ton of money for a sport that's second fiddle to football and didn't even get exclusivety (thank heavens for the Show). It might have worked if they had the best game but that's not the case.

With all of MS' money, I still wonder why they wouldn't buy out the 2K sports brand and make it 360 exclusive. It would be huge for console sales although Rudy wouldn't be happy as a PS3 owner.

[JRod]

Re: Ouch 2K Sports....

I love presentation stuff like half time and post game shows. I got a PS2 HDD just so I could watch that stuff for 2K5 and never skipped them.

I will say that 2K made a huge mistake on the baseball license. They paid a ton of money for a sport that's second fiddle to football and didn't even get exclusivety (thank heavens for the Show). It might have worked if they had the best game but that's not the case.

With all of MS' money, I still wonder why they wouldn't buy out the 2K sports brand and make it 360 exclusive. It would be huge for console sales although Rudy wouldn't be happy as a PS3 owner.

I know what you are saying about baseball but I think its like 3rd and 4th fiddle. I don't know the sales but I think baseball games don't sell as well as other sports not including football.


As much as presentation needs to be worked on in football games, its necessary for US that 2k stays alive. A gaming world with only EA Sports means I find another hobby.

[spankdatazz22]

Re: Ouch 2K Sports....

and 2k does it now. APF2k8 had guys on the sidelines and the occasioanly cutscene, but there was nothing for winning the season championship or doing anything special, just like EA games.

This is kinda what I mean. The sideline stuff adds a ton visually to the game, both in APF and NBA2K8. As well as the job w/the crowds in the arenas and stadiums. Things not possible last gen. But it's brushed aside because an ABC/CBS/Fox logo isn't popping up on the screen every so often (of course that's an exaggeration). I too feel 2K5 was ahead of it's time and probably the best football game to date. But I don't forget that back then, any Madden fan could've made a legitimate argument as to why Madden 05 was just as good if not better. I owned both and enjoyed both for different reasons. There aren't a ton of romanticized notions of that particular Madden because Madden subsequent Maddens did improve - just not in the way most of us feel it should have. And because of that, it gets dogged - rightfully so imo. But I think people are too quick to lump all sports titles in that same bin when that shouldn't be the case.

It's not often that games are reimagined, like the difference of Resident Evil 4 from it's previous versions. Like GTA III was from GTA II. Just saying I don't think sports games are lagging "so far" behind other genres in terms of how they've evolved. Because some of the higher profile sports titles aren't what they should be, some fault sports gaming on the whole

[DaveDQ]

Re: Ouch 2K Sports....

One, they no longer have the ESPN license. But I distinctly remember thinking the year after they lost the NFL/ESPN licenses when NBA2K6 came out, most of us remarked that presentation had improved even though the overlays were generic (outside of the Gatorade stuff).

True about the ESPN license but they could create a "make believe" network and run with that. Personally, I feel the closest we've seen to 2K5's presentation is MLB 2K7. That game is very sleek and gives you a very nice broadcast feel. I also enjoyed the Toyota fast break in NBA 2K7.

[lasthour]

Re: Ouch 2K Sports....

To put it plain and simlple these games have lost their fun factor. The battles of two users is not edge of your seat fun. What made Street Fighter, THE TECMO BOWLS, Tekken 3, NFL 2k5, a few of the NBA Lives, ect. fun was the battles. The controls were simple yet the gameplay was balanced in most cases. Now games are getting away from the simple interface. This also pushes away new comers and those that have been playing game X for 5-10 years.

I think too much focus on realism detracts from the fun factor even tho I prefer sim or sim outcomes. ME I rather have the battles: reciever against db, DL and LBs against OL and rbs, realistic team styles, cut scenes, exaggerated player features/moves, a loud PA.

Anyone else feel that this is the direction that we have left and need to get back to? Do you remember the great games before the internet boom? Blades of Steel, RBI baseball, Street Fighter, Tecmo Super Bowls, etc. It seems that the WII may be pointed in the right direction, but 360 and PS3 needs to if nothing else, give us the fun back!!

Sorry, but I just think it needs to be done. I and I know others are tired of glitchy games with minimal effort and no vision. The industry is just being greedy and out smarting themselves with ways to save or make a dollar.

Maybe Street Fighter 4 and the new Tecmo Bowl game will get back to gaming roots.

[jmood88]

Re: Ouch 2K Sports....

To put it plain and simlple these games have lost their fun factor. The battles of two users is not edge of your seat fun. What made Street Fighter, THE TECMO BOWLS, Tekken 3, NFL 2k5, a few of the NBA Lives, ect. fun was the battles. The controls were simple yet the gameplay was balanced in most cases. Now games are getting away from the simple interface. This also pushes away new comers and those that have been playing game X for 5-10 years.

I think too much focus on realism detracts from the fun factor even tho I prefer sim or sim outcomes. ME I rather have the battles: reciever against db, DL and LBs against OL and rbs, realistic team styles, cut scenes, exaggerated player features/moves, a loud PA.

Anyone else feel that this is the direction that we have left and need to get back to? Do you remember the great games before the internet boom? Blades of Steel, RBI baseball, Street Fighter, Tecmo Super Bowls, etc. It seems that the WII may be pointed in the right direction, but 360 and PS3 needs to if nothing else, give us the fun back!!

Sorry, but I just think it needs to be done. I and I know others are tired of glitchy games with minimal effort and no vision. The industry is just being greedy and out smarting themselves with ways to save or make a dollar.

Maybe Street Fighter 4 and the new Tecmo Bowl game will get back to gaming roots.

If you don't want a realistic game there are arcade sports games out there for you.

[bizcanos]

Re: Ouch 2K Sports....

I think it's simple. EA's cash cow is Madden. Madden makes so much money each year it's ridiculous. Take Two's cash cow (in regards to sports games) was ESPN 2K football. Once they lost they, they have struggled to turn a profit. Take Two no longer has that cash cow sports game that can offset the other sports games not selling alot of copies. I see Take Two selling 2k sports to someone else.

[Village Idiot]

Re: Ouch 2K Sports....

... because the games are *looking* more and more realistic, people expect them to actually *be* more realistic. It's not going to happen because what happens on a football field, hockey rink, basketball court, etc. in real life is so complicated and so unpredictable, it's insanely difficult to try and program all the possibilities and have it be 100% believable ...

With all respect, this is pretty much nonsense. When guys complain about AI, generally speaking they're not using real life as the counterexample, they're using what games have already shown AI to be capable of. I mean take a look around: guys are complaining about regression, not their wishes for perfection not coming true. The AI in NCAA 08 is simply not as good as it was FIVE YEARS AGO. That fact has nothing at all to do with how "complicated" or "unpredictable" sports are.

[USF11]

Re: Ouch 2K Sports....

Take Two is unprofitable. Ends up selling the 2K franchise. Activition buys it up. Now 2K would have ample funding to at least put 5 more pages on their game manuals.

Just because something is unprofitable doesnt mean it doesnt have value. You CANNOT judge software sales until there are more 360's&PS3's in homes. I would say if year 4 wasnt turning a profit when their are 25+ Million consoles then you have a problem.

[mgoblue]

Re: Ouch 2K Sports....

I think it's simple. EA's cash cow is Madden. Madden makes so much money each year it's ridiculous. Take Two's cash cow (in regards to sports games) was ESPN 2K football. Once they lost they, they have struggled to turn a profit. Take Two no longer has that cash cow sports game that can offset the other sports games not selling alot of copies. I see Take Two selling 2k sports to someone else.

Did Take Two really ever have a "cash cow"? I know we all bought a ton of 2k games, at least I did, but I question their general appeal.

With all respect, this is pretty much nonsense. When guys complain about AI, generally speaking they're not using real life as the counterexample, they're using what games have already shown AI to be capable of. I mean take a look around: guys are complaining about regression, not their wishes for perfection not coming true. The AI in NCAA 08 is simply not as good as it was FIVE YEARS AGO. That fact has nothing at all to do with how "complicated" or "unpredictable" sports are.

Games 5 years ago had just as many or more issues...we just glaze over them because it's the "Golden Age" in our minds...2k5 was by no means perfect but since it got killed it's now a diety.
I know I don't want to play NCAA 2003, NHL 03, 2k3, NBA, etc...We would notice things we don't even think about now. Just my opinion, I do see where you're coming from and agree that there are things in the past that were done better. I also just see a ton of people dreaming for a past that they think was amazing, when it really wasn't that good.

[spankdatazz22]

Re: Ouch 2K Sports....

True about the ESPN license but they could create a "make believe" network and run with that. Personally, I feel the closest we've seen to 2K5's presentation is MLB 2K7. That game is very sleek and gives you a very nice broadcast feel. I also enjoyed the Toyota fast break in NBA 2K7.

I couldn't find my copy of 2K5, so I ran out and picked it up for $2 at Gamestop.

And I have to apologize to you. I'm only a couple drives in and the game holds up amazingly well. I'm finding myself a little dumbfounded by all that I forgot about the title; it really did take presentation several levels beyond what had come before and after it.

Still, I don't think what games are doing now is chopped liver (specifically the 2K games). But you're definitely right regarding 2K5. To get back on topic, I'd likely give up sports gaming if 2K goes by the wayside/isn't recognized by consumers for what they bring to the table. Unfortunately hype sells, even to people that should know better.