Well this is wonderful news...

[Scottdau]

Re: Well this is wonderful news...

Hitler's mistake was starting wars on both fronts. Someone has to be related to him. I know my great cousins was cooked in a oven, by that nut. He was a nut, but man he sure got a lot of people to follow him. Mostly because Germans are proud people and when they lost WW I and had to say it was their fault (which it was) That is when Hitler was able to step in. And bring back the pride. That man is evil, you can call it crazy, but he was just plain evil.

[Scottdau]

Re: Well this is wonderful news...

Cosign. No one that tries to fight a two-front war against Russia (in the winter, no less) and America & Britain can be called a "great strategist." The Germans were doomed when they tried to invade Russia in the winter in the first place. The fact that they tried to do it while still fighting in western Europe was just ridiculous (from a war point of view; from a personal point of view I'm quite happy the Germans self destructed).

Ding Ding Ding Ding we have a winner.

[ZB9]

Re: Well this is wonderful news...

We know he was insane and evil...but Hitler also became a very serious drug user (opiates, including heroin). The drugs might partly explain some of his idiotic strategic decisions (like invading Russia)

[youvalss]

Re: Well this is wonderful news...

He was probably an evil genious because, hey, he looked the opposite of the ideal look he had worshiped, and his allies were the Japs (who also look the complete opposite) - and people still followed him. I wonder what he put in the people's water...

[SPTO]

Re: Well this is wonderful news...

There's no way Germany's invasion could have worked. I don't doubt that they could have reached Moscow, but that's not winning the war. Hundreds of cities have been reached and some even taken by states who would go on to lose the war they were fighting. The winter still would have came, the German's still would have had no supplies, and they were still fighting a relentless enemy that outnumbered them, out equipped them, had better equipment, out produced them, hated them, and was defending their land from a bunch of German hoes. The Russians would have died before being ruled by the Nazis, but it would have never come to that.

Even if somehow, the Germans managed to defeat the Russian army, all they would have had was a few thousand miles of land with no one in it.

Again you're using revisionist history to aid you. The invasion would have worked if they didn't get stuck in the Russian winter. Trust me on this, they were literally days away from Moscow. As for the supplies well as the winter came and they're in Moscow they would've been able to use the railroad facilities and such to move the supplies around. Also remember that by taking Moscow and essentially grounding Russia to a halt they would've had nearly unfettered access to the oil fields so voila! That's one bit of supplies they'd have in excess

As to your point about Russian military being better equipped hm well in some areas they were. They definitely had an edge in tank warfare but that wasn't until about 1943 which would've been far too late if Germany had taken Moscow in '41. In fact, most of Russia's equipment was substandard for much of the first half of the war. It wasn't until Germany got bogged down in the winter and essentially stuck in no man's land that Russia was able to get an upper hand tactically and militarily. Hell, Stalin and all of the people working in the Kremlin were hiding miles away in some Godforsaken town when the German's were advancing!

It doesn't look like i'm going to change your mind about just how close Germany was to total victory but I will say a couple more things. If Germany had taken over there would be rebel uprisings indeed. I don't think there'd ever be an actual end to hostilities as it'd be a series of uprisings but eventually it would become less and less. The Germans were very good at taking over every facet of government and life that the transition would've been quite smooth. IIRC there was quite a big faction of Russians who actually didn't think the Germans were that bad. I do think Hitler would've played nice-nice for a couple years then spring the trap of throwing the "lower subhumans and gypsies" into concentration camps but it wouldn't have been right off the bat.

This would make continental Europe almost totally Nazified excepting popular uprisings and such. Hitler and his high command would then stabilize the continent as much as they could while trying to curry favor with England. Of course that wouldn't work and you'd probably see a full blown invasion of Britain a year or two after the defeat of Russia.

Anywho I always love talking history especially the 1930s-40s Europe/World War II. I've always been very keen on that subject so this was quite a pleasant surprise to see the topic still alive and you and I could debate a bit.

[CMH]

Re: Well this is wonderful news...

I was just trying to convey a point, that there are other candidates for worst human ever.

Columbus gets a bad rap, though.

In his own writings he even suggested the possibility that the Natives weren't savages but just as human as him, his crew, and the Spaniards.

He was interested in their customs and traditions and sought to learn as much as possible from them.

Columbus was more a navigator than anything. He didn't lead any soldiers into the Americas to kill people.

The most he should really be blamed for is making Europe aware of the "new" land.

[davin]

Re: Well this is wonderful news...

I'll add a couple things to this:

There is a relative of Hitler that lives in my hometown, went to the same school as me, and was my sister's friend. They changed the spelling of their last name slightly, and are extremely embaressed of the connection. Although the spelling is changed, it is only by adding a couple t's and l's.

I agree a little bit with SPTO, but I don't know if I would go as far. Germany was very close to Moscow, and I believe had they been able to settle into camp there, we would be talking about a much different history. However, I still believe the logisitical problem would have been too great over the course of the winter. There is no doubt in my mind that the Russians would enter a phase of guerilla warfare in which Germany would have had fits with. Even if Germany could have gotten that far, Russia wouldn't just capitulate, that wasn't Stalin's style. Eventually I believe Germany would lose, as Russia is one hell of a place to try to put down uprisings all over the place. As SPTO stated, I believe that Japan would have taken the east of Russia, ,and Hitler would have taken the best of the resources. Had Germany somehow won the 2nd World War, and Japan also won, I wonder how they could put up with eachother, as both claimed racial superiority, and both were very aggressive.

Strategically, Hitler was on the way down. Others have discussed his drug habits, but let us not forget his afflictions. The man had syphilis, which can really wreak havoc on the brain. He also had Parkinson's disease. The guy was pretty drugged up and had become delusional. He had one of the best generals he had commit suicide (Rommel). One way or another, his reich would fall in about the same way.

[SPTO]

Re: Well this is wonderful news...

They should've just renamed themselves Shicklgruber (sp)

I forgot exactly the reasoning behind having Rommel killed but the man was one of the most astute and by all accounts classy guys around. He was so well respected that the Allied commanders actually studied some of Rommel's tactics and Patton basically wanted a mano a mano mechanized duel to the finish.

Rommel was so astute that he knew where the Allies were going to land on D-Day. That's pretty amazing considering how the Germans were getting faulty information regarding that.

[Scottdau]

Re: Well this is wonderful news...

They should've just renamed themselves Shicklgruber (sp)

I forgot exactly the reasoning behind having Rommel killed but the man was one of the most astute and by all accounts classy guys around. He was so well respected that the Allied commanders actually studied some of Rommel's tactics and Patton basically wanted a mano a mano mechanized duel to the finish.

Rommel was so astute that he knew where the Allies were going to land on D-Day. That's pretty amazing considering how the Germans were getting faulty information regarding that.

Yeah I read that too. The German's did have some start leaders. Goering was a genius too when it came to strategies.

Actually I do remember why he was killed. There was a plot to kill Hitler. The German Generals were tired of being lead by a Corporal. So when Hitler found out he blame Rommel, even though there was no evidence.

[SPTO]

Re: Well this is wonderful news...

Actually I do remember why he was killed. There was a plot to kill Hitler. The German Generals were tired of being lead by a Corporal. So when Hitler found out he blame Rommel, even though there was no evidence.

Ah yeah, Rommel knew of the plot but he wouldn't reveal what he knew so hence he paid the price.

BTW Goering was not smart. He was the one after all who urged Hitler to stop the ground assault to Dunkirk so that his luftwaffe would be able to take the glory which turned out to be one of the biggest blunders of the war because the next day the weather was not good for aerial attack and by the time Hitler got the army back on the offensive it was too late as the RAF had already used the cover of fog to get back to England.

[Scottdau]

Re: Well this is wonderful news...

Ah yeah, Rommel knew of the plot but he wouldn't reveal what he knew so hence he paid the price.

BTW Goering was not smart. He was the one after all who urged Hitler to stop the ground assault to Dunkirk so that his luftwaffe would be able to take the glory which turned out to be one of the biggest blunders of the war because the next day the weather was not good for aerial attack and by the time Hitler got the army back on the offensive it was too late as the RAF had already used the cover of fog to get back to England.

That is true, but he was still a smart pilot. That is what I meant by that remark. The problem was he was to conceit and wanted all the glory that was his down fall. The bottom line these were very smart military men and almost took over Europe. The biggest thing was that they never could come up with a A Bomb if they have it would have been a different story. I watch a documentary about the commandos destroying a Lab in Norway that were using HEAVY WATER. I showed it to my class yesterday it was really interesting. It was done by National Geographics.

[baumy300]

Re: Well this is wonderful news...

I talked to my grandmother a little more and as it turns out she was pretty distant cousins to that Eva chic. I wasn't quite sure how close the two were, but yeah, they weren't anything special other than the last name and a connection here and there, according to her.

Still "cool" news to find out. I still don't know what the exact relation is though.

[mkharsh33]

Re: Well this is wonderful news...

I'll add a couple things to this:

They changed the spelling of their last name slightly, and are extremely embaressed of the connection. Although the spelling is changed, it is only by adding a couple t's and l's.

I would have went with $hitler...