Big Three changes need to start at the top

[superjames1992]

Re: Big Three changes need to start at the top

Just to let you people know, there is no such thing as an oil-less economy. Oil is everything. Oil got us off the "little house on the prairie" to the richest country in the world. Not only does oil run transportation, it is used in just about everything from make.

Heck, here's a good site to see how interrelated our civilization is to oil. From lipstick to makeup to computers to medicines and bandages, it's all partly made from petrochemicals.

http://www.priweb.org/ed/pgws/uses/bandage.html

I'm not going to chime in on the Big Three bailout issue ... I don't want another infraction.

[fistofrage]

Re: Big Three changes need to start at the top

We can't selectively decide which business get to go on and what businesses get to fail. Either we are socialists with government subsidized industries or we are a free market economy.

The Big 3 are unfortunately a money pit. That $25 Billion will never be repaid to the tax payers.

On the other hand if they just go bankrupt, there are more severe ramifications but they should use that $25 billion to fix the ramifications and move on.

Businesses need to sustain themselves on their own merit. Period. I want to open my own sports video game consultuing service. I will pay myself $100,000 per year. Should my business fail, your tax dollars need to bail me out. Feel free to open your own failing business. Fair is fair, right.

[p_rushing]

Re: Big Three changes need to start at the top

You will never convince someone that is in a union that the union is bad for them, unless they didn't want to join the union to begin with.

Reasons the new worker sees the union as good:
Pay and benefits- they get a great starting rate and benefits, no company will match this

Seniority pay raises- they see that if they stay in the company, they know what their pay will be and they know they will get it when it is their turn

Job security- they know they will not be fired/cut for being the low man on the totem pole and if they are, they will be paid for about 1 year

Reasons unions are bad:
Keeps pay potential low- You might think this is wrong, but the union actually hurts your earning power. If you are a great worker and excel at your job, it doesn't matter. You will be paid based off your job and the years in the company. The same guy who does nothing, is the slowest, etc, can be making more money than you. So it keeps the lower workers' pay higher than it should be and the top union bosses pay high, it actually hurts the middle guys.

Kills drive and ambition- If you have to wait your turn, nothing matters what you do. Why go bust your butt if you know you will get paid the same no matter what you do.

Kills knowledge transfer/improvement- If I don't keep my knowledge up in my area and make sure I know what new stuff is out there, I will be phased out and lose my job or pay at some point. There is no reason for someone to continue to go to school, continue learning new techniques, new processes, etc. They've been making this car for 10+ years, they can attach the tires to the car. There is incentive for them to learn how to install the brakes, rotors, etc.

Will end up killing the company- Unions have too much power. They handcuff a company into giving them whatever they want. Its basically the reverse of what companies used to do to some employees before the unions. I'm sorry, but not everyone deserves to be paid well. If you do an easy task, suck at your job, etc, you shouldn't be making much. Sooner or later, your demands will start costing people their jobs, but if the union has too much power, they can't fire the people, so the company then cannot continue to operate.

Unions were needed in the past to protect the workers and keep sweat shops from being formed. Now there is no way a company would get away with it. Blogs, News, and regulations would keep any company from unfairly treating its workers. Unions now are only protecting the slackers and the bosses.

The bailout is coming, there is no way to stop it, it is just going to be postponed until 2009. It won't bail out the big 3, but the union's of the big 3.

[fistofrage]

Re: Big Three changes need to start at the top

You will never convince someone that is in a union that the union is bad for them, unless they didn't want to join the union to begin with.

Reasons the new worker sees the union as good:
Pay and benefits- they get a great starting rate and benefits, no company will match this

Seniority pay raises- they see that if they stay in the company, they know what their pay will be and they know they will get it when it is their turn

Job security- they know they will not be fired/cut for being the low man on the totem pole and if they are, they will be paid for about 1 year

Reasons unions are bad:
Keeps pay potential low- You might think this is wrong, but the union actually hurts your earning power. If you are a great worker and excel at your job, it doesn't matter. You will be paid based off your job and the years in the company. The same guy who does nothing, is the slowest, etc, can be making more money than you. So it keeps the lower workers' pay higher than it should be and the top union bosses pay high, it actually hurts the middle guys.

Kills drive and ambition- If you have to wait your turn, nothing matters what you do. Why go bust your butt if you know you will get paid the same no matter what you do.

Kills knowledge transfer/improvement- If I don't keep my knowledge up in my area and make sure I know what new stuff is out there, I will be phased out and lose my job or pay at some point. There is no reason for someone to continue to go to school, continue learning new techniques, new processes, etc. They've been making this car for 10+ years, they can attach the tires to the car. There is incentive for them to learn how to install the brakes, rotors, etc.

Will end up killing the company- Unions have too much power. They handcuff a company into giving them whatever they want. Its basically the reverse of what companies used to do to some employees before the unions. I'm sorry, but not everyone deserves to be paid well. If you do an easy task, suck at your job, etc, you shouldn't be making much. Sooner or later, your demands will start costing people their jobs, but if the union has too much power, they can't fire the people, so the company then cannot continue to operate.

Unions were needed in the past to protect the workers and keep sweat shops from being formed. Now there is no way a company would get away with it. Blogs, News, and regulations would keep any company from unfairly treating its workers. Unions now are only protecting the slackers and the bosses.

The bailout is coming, there is no way to stop it, it is just going to be postponed until 2009. It won't bail out the big 3, but the union's of the big 3.

There will always be a need to producer large durable goods in the US because getting a large product to market costs too much to produce abroad especially with volatile shipping costs.

However, the Auto industry will be in the south and lower midwest as unions aren't as developed there and the auto industry there will pay fair wages.

I've said it to my union friends in the past if you are getting paid $25 per hour to do a job that pays $15 in the open market, you'll eventually see those jobs move to the open market. But most people are living for today and want to get as much in the present even at the expense of mortgaging their future.

In addition to that, it doesn't make sense to manufacture in Michigan. We're on a peninsula and it costs too much to get those goods off that peninsula when you can go to Southern Indiana/Ohio and the surrounding regions and get goods to market much more efficiently. As of 2004/2005, logistics costs of goods exceeded the production labor costs so why would you produce anything in Michigan where you have to circumnavigate the lakes to get anything where it needs to be?

[jpup]

Re: Big Three changes need to start at the top

The financial and agricultural industries are about 500,000 times more important to America and the world than 3 horribly run car companies.

you have no idea what you are talking about. The midwest and large parts of the South would crumble without the big 3.

[Cebby]

Re: Big Three changes need to start at the top

you have no idea what you are talking about. The midwest and large parts of the South would crumble without the big 3.

What parts of the south would be crumbling? They'd be getting flooded with new auto manufacturing jobs.

As for the Detroit auto industry, I'm right. If the Detroit three fail, the mid west manufacturing jobs would be dead and that part of the economy would be down. If our financial industry fails, there is no credit. That affects many more people. If our agricultural system fails, there will be mass starvation all over the world. My estimation may be +/- 10%, but it's in the ball park.

I mean, I can't be the only one who thinks that if these economies are so dependent on a failing industry that requires $25 billion right now while others are, you know, making money that the areas need to transition into a modern economy.

If the midwest wants to be the US' Mexico, China, or Thailand, then they shouldn't be living like the rest of the state.

[jim416]

Re: Big Three changes need to start at the top

When I seize power, I will guarantee that there will be no bailouts for anyone.

Make me your Vice President, please.

This disaster has been coming for a long time. We have become a country of spenders, debt, and, in our entire government, corrupt. It's a sad situation. One poster said that the bail out IS coming and I sadly agree. And that will solve n-o-t-h-i-n-g. Unfortunately we need to take our medicine and it might as well be now. This bail out will be a band aid and one that will come off quickly, especially with tax increases looming on the horizon.

Fear is driving us right now. Every day good, honest, hard working Americans wake up and wonder what devastation might be brought to their families. I completely understand this.

It would be nice to hear someone sooth those fears by announcing.

NO TAX INCREASES FOR 2009

NO INCREASES IN GOVERNMENT SPENDING IN 2009

NO CAPITAL GAINS TAX IN 2009

To me that would be a start to help give people some confidence back, but no, our government is at war with itself in that search for power, the American people be damned.

[fistofrage]

Re: Big Three changes need to start at the top

When I seize power, I will guarantee that there will be no bailouts for anyone.

Make me your Vice President, please.

This disaster has been coming for a long time. We have become a country of spenders, debt, and, in our entire government, corrupt. It's a sad situation. One poster said that the bail out IS coming and I sadly agree. And that will solve n-o-t-h-i-n-g. Unfortunately we need to take our medicine and it might as well be now. This bail out will be a band aid and one that will come off quickly, especially with tax increases looming on the horizon.

Fear is driving us right now. Every day good, honest, hard working Americans wake up and wonder what devastation might be brought to their families. I completely understand this.

It would be nice to hear someone sooth those fears by announcing.

NO TAX INCREASES FOR 2009

NO INCREASES IN GOVERNMENT SPENDING IN 2009

NO CAPITAL GAINS TAX IN 2009

To me that would be a start to help give people some confidence back, but no, our government is at war with itself in that search for power, the American people be damned.

Unfortunately the masses have spoken and with their hands out like Oliver Twist, they screamed, "More Sir!". That More being more Big Government and everything that goes with it.

[Darkleaf]

Re: Big Three changes need to start at the top

Their are rumblings that if the Auto industry goes under in Detroit it will take the Red Wings with it.
Lot's of money tied up between the two in a variety of ways.

[jim416]

Re: Big Three changes need to start at the top

Unfortunately the masses have spoken and with their hands out like Oliver Twist, they screamed, "More Sir!". That More being more Big Government and everything that goes with it.

Yep, more of a reason the bail out will not work.

[ezekiel55]

Re: Big Three changes need to start at the top

Yes. Oil and nuclear power are the best energy solutions. Relying on green energy at this point is like sending a 12 year old honors kid to Harvard. At some point, it might be an option, but it's not anywhere near ready.

You actually argued a case for Green technology and weening our country off oil with this statement.

In the short term green tech will be overpriced and inefficient...which is how most new techs and processes began.

People will take a huge hit(finacially) and "green" companies will fold left and right...but after the "green boom" the foundation will be laid....Once the infrastructure is there the market for "green tech" will cease to be overvalued and settle at fair market pricing....It happened with the Industrial boom at the turn of the century and the internet boom at the end of the 20th century.

It's an unfortunate, but necessary evil.

Here is a great book that explains the situaition. (much better than I can )

http://www.thomaslfriedman.com/bookshelf/hot-flat-and-crowded

[jim416]

Re: Big Three changes need to start at the top

Here's something interesting on this topic.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20081120/bs_afp/financeeconomyusgulf_081120072928

[Cebby]

Re: Big Three changes need to start at the top

People will take a huge hit(finacially) and "green" companies will fold left and right...but after the "green boom" the foundation will be laid....Once the infrastructure is there the market for "green tech" will cease to be overvalued and settle at fair market pricing....

And in between there will be no or very little power, no transportation, and no or very little communication.

It happened with the Industrial boom at the turn of the century and the internet boom at the end of the 20th century.

No it didn't. The internet was completely separate from other infrastructure. This would be like ripping up all land phone lines in 1985 because mobile phones had been created and available commercially.

I'm all for "weening" our state off of oil and coal. However, you don't do that overnight.

[jim416]

Re: Big Three changes need to start at the top

I'm all for "weening" our state off of oil and coal. However, you don't do that overnight.

Will not happen in our life time with the leadership we currently have, and I'm talking in general, last couple of decades, future decade.

Drill baby, drill. (until such time as our "leadership" proves otherwise).

[ezekiel55]

Re: Big Three changes need to start at the top

And in between there will be no or very little power, no transportation, and no or very little communication.



No it didn't. The internet was completely separate from other infrastructure. This would be like ripping up all land phone lines in 1985 because mobile phones had been created and available commercially.

I'm all for "weening" our state off of oil and coal. However, you don't do that overnight.

You definitely misunderstood what I wrote...I never said completely do away with oil as an energy source and I never said these things can be done overnight....we need to start intergrating them now...it would be completely idiotic to do away with these things altogether.

Obviously during the industrial revolution people were still using coal and steam power...and of course during the internet boom we didnt "tear up phone lines."

Dont see how you could have interpreted that from what I wrote.

EDIT-

You also seem to be conviniently forgetting the crash of internet stock, considering how overvalued it was....like I said this is how new tech and processes come to fruition....new tech->overvaluation and price gouging->infrastructure created->bubble bursts->market readjusts to fair market value.

Obviously, that is completely oversimplyfying it but its a general guideline to how these things work.