Do you believe that the Man should be the LEADER of the relationship? (Stolen)

[JBH3]

Re: Do you believe that the Man should be the LEADER of the relationship? (Stolen)

Talk? Who does that?

I bet you probably share some feelings and emotions with each other too... gross.

QFT.

I have not met a single woman on this earth that wants to be the primary decision maker in a relationship.

Meet my mom. The Marine Corps taught me how to be a man, and I learned how not to from my pops; love him though, but that's the honest truth.

I agree. They do it because they CAN or they are "allowed to" but they don't REALLY want it. No matter what they portray.

@ JetSurfer

You and Born and others have this neat little outlook, that because you've met a lot of women, you think you know how the entire gender is?

Or because of some basic understanding of human nature, you can apply that across the board or take an animal kingdom reference like your little Lion versus human comparison and associate that w/ the dynamics and sophistication of human interaction?

What is a leader ? A leader protects, watches over, influences, takes charge, shows initiative without belittling those around him. The fact that a man is supposed to PROTECT alone shows that it is a NATURAL position for him to lead. A woman shouldn't be the protector, and as I said, if she is then that relationship is backwards.

You've mentioned only TWO characteristics of leadership:

Intiative and Tact.

There are 11 others:

Dependability - The certainty of proper performance of duty.
Bearing - Creating a favorable impression in carriage, appearance and personal conduct at all times.
Courage - The mental quality that recognizes fear of danger or criticism, but enables a man to proceed in the face of it with calmness and firmness.
Decisiveness - Ability to make decisions promptly and to announce them in clear, forceful manner.
Endurance - The mental and physical stamina measured by the ability to withstand pain, fatigue, stress and hardship.
Enthusiasm - The display of sincere interest and exuberance in the performance of duty.
Initiative - Taking action in the absence of orders.
Integrity - Uprightness of character and soundness of moral principles; includes the qualities of truthfulness and honesty.
Judgment - The ability to weigh facts and possible solutions on which to base sound decisions.
Justice - Giving reward and punishment according to merits of the case in question. The ability to administer a system of rewards and punishments impartially and consistently.
Knowledge - Understanding of a science or an art. The range of one's information, including professional knowledge and an understanding of your Marines.
Tact - The ability to deal with others without creating offense.
Unselfishness - Avoidance of providing for one's own comfort and personal advancement at the expense of others.
Loyalty - The quality of faithfulness to country, the Corps, the unit, to one's seniors, subordinates and peers.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Integrity was bolded and put in red because it is THE MOST important of all the leadership traits (IMO).

Women can be knowledgeable right?

They can be loyal right?

...and what's funny about this is the psuedo "Pro-Macho" side sees loyalty as nothing more than an act or a role. When really it is a leadership trait, and for her to be loyal to YOU teaches the children about loyalty and shows the children (for the sake of this discussion) that you're a capable trustworthy leader/father.

As for decision making...Women might not share the same capacity of decision making, but otherwise embody other traits more than men or are equal in other traits as well... And as the above illustrates, decisionmaking is just ONE aspect of leadership. A lot of you guys seem to think that the "decision maker" defaults to the LEADER. Nope. Because the decision can be made to do this/that, but w/o AT LEAST someone's loyalty a decision will be in vain.

YOU and others seem to have this idea entirely wrong. The MAN is NOT the sole leader of the family. The MAN and WOMAN are the leader of the children/family. Both share and exceed in different traits of leadership, and a typically healthy family consists of a man and women working together to carry the load and lead the family.

If we as men think we are the sole-leader because we bring in the most money (olden days) you're bassackwards. How can that be when the women is leading the children, and more/less raising them while we go off to work? If she is a good/capable leader she is embodying and INSTILLING the leadership traits listed above in the children while daddy is at work fullfilling only dependability, courage (depending on your job duties), unselfishness, and loyalty in his daily actions of leadership.

Last time I checked, the PROTECTOR of anything isn't the one NOT in charge

A protector is a protector. A leader who protects is not a good leader. That's micro-managing. A leader teaches one how TO PROTECT, so that they can teach others how to protect as well.

In a Lion Community. The Leader is the protector. The MALE is the provider.... Read More

We can all look at animals to see the natural makeup of male/female interactions.

Men = Leadership Role
Woman = Supporting Role

You're obviously speaking out of your ***, and know nothing of the animal kingdom. I've watched plenty of animalplanet to know the below (pulled from wikipedia).

Lionesses do the majority of the hunting for their pride, being smaller, swifter and more agile than the males, and unencumbered by the heavy and conspicuous mane, which causes overheating during exertion. They act as a co-ordinated group in order to stalk and bring down the prey successfully. However, if nearby the hunt, males have a tendency to dominate the kill once the lionesses have succeeded and eaten. They are more likely to share with the cubs than with the lionesses, but rarely share food they have killed by themselves. Smaller prey is eaten at the location of the hunt, thereby being shared among the hunters; when the kill is larger it often is dragged to the pride area. There is more sharing of larger kills, <SUP id=cite_ref-Schaller133_54-0 class=reference>[55]</SUP> although pride members often behave aggressively toward each other as each tries to consume as much food as possible.
Both males and females defend the pride against intruders.

The bolded above shows, that if anything, the male lion is a lazy, yet powerful animal. Much of the responsibility falls to the female lions, and both, according to your ideas of a leader DC, ARE leaders because they both PROTECT.....And since you protect that means you're a leader...right? SMH.

In addition female praying mantises kill the male after mating, and black widows do the same.

You've got a very inaccurate and archaeic view of male to female interaction/responsiblities.

I just don't want to burden other people with my problems.

I tend to be the same way.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: Do you believe that the Man should be the LEADER of the relationship? (Stolen)

I can't believe you brought your mom into this. Not going to get into that, as it really can't lead to a positive place. I will however note that a soldier is a professional at being told what to do.

[MC Fatigue]

Re: Do you believe that the Man should be the LEADER of the relationship? (Stolen)

I can't believe you brought your mom into this.

Why? He brought up a valid person in which to prove a point.

[JBH3]

Re: Do you believe that the Man should be the LEADER of the relationship? (Stolen)

I can't believe you brought your mom into this. Not going to get into that, as it really can't lead to a positive place.

What are you talking about? My mom is the stronger parent than my father. To this day conversations w/ my pops add up to nothing more than small talk about sports.

With my mom we talk about anything, and unlike my father she engages conversation and cares about listening. My father is a one-way street, and like I said earlier.... I learned more about becoming a man from (my grandfather and) the Marine Corps moreover than my dad.

I will however note that a soldier is a professional at being told what to do.

A soldier is not a professional of being told what to do. Often times there are soldiers, sailors, and Marines who do NOT do what they're told and it can otherwise be blamed on poor leadership. i.e. not feeling confident in a leaders abilities OR just being a dumb***.

But you're missing the whole point and dismissing the traits I post because they happen to be the <strike>Marine Corps</strike> fundamental traits of leadership. Forget that my knowledge of these traits comes from being a Marine....

Because nevertheless they ARE the fundamental leadership traits in any capacity. Be it a non-commissioned officer or a supervisor at a law firm. Without all or some of these traits you're not a leader.

Why? He brought up a valid person in which to prove a point.

Exactly Timmay. My mom is a leader at home, and at her place of work (supervisor w/ child protective services).

[Whitesox]

Re: Do you believe that the Man should be the LEADER of the relationship? (Stolen)

The bolded above shows, that if anything, the male lion is a lazy, yet powerful animal. Much of the responsibility falls to the female lions, and both, according to your ideas of a leader DC, ARE leaders because they both PROTECT.....And since you protect that means you're a leader...right? SMH.

In addition female praying mantises kill the male after mating, and black widows do the same.

You've got a very inaccurate and archaeic view of male to female interaction/responsiblities.

Excelent post in whole, and especially this exerpt.

[stewaat]

Re: Do you believe that the Man should be the LEADER of the relationship? (Stolen)

Here's a girl's take...

No one is the "leader" between a man and a woman in a relationship. I think it should be equal. I think men will always be the head of the household, but I love seeing some men include their wives in all their decisions and consult her for stuff. That's respectful, even though she makes him feel like the boss or leader.. they should be equals. Mutual respect.

She could've done without the last sentence!

[frostbyte06]

Re: Do you believe that the Man should be the LEADER of the relationship? (Stolen)

Just depends who you are with I guess. My wife is just as smart or smarter than me so I don't mind sharing decisions with her. If I married a dumb girl maybe I'd be more inclined to making all the decisions.

See I don't think that being a Leader means you make all the decisions. Take the President of the USA (I'm just talking about the office, not the person). The person in that position realizes that they have strengths and weaknesses and that's why they have a cabinet. So if a man is being a good leader (head of household), then he is going examine himself and realize what areas his wife tends to be better in (finances, whatever the case) and consult her in those areas. Also even if it is something he tends to be better in, a good leader would explain his line of thinking to his wife so that she understands where he is coming from, instead of a "this is just how is going to go" type of line. I just don't understand why we are taking the word "Leader" to mean "Dictator", I do take it that in the end you will make the final decision, however I also take it that you will consult your wife on all things, so that she knows her point of view has been considered.

[JBH3]

Re: Do you believe that the Man should be the LEADER of the relationship? (Stolen)

See I don't think that being a Leader means you make all the decisions. Take the President of the USA (I'm just talking about the office, not the person). The person in that position realizes that they have strengths and weaknesses and that's why they have a cabinet. So if a man is being a good leader (head of household), then he is going examine himself and realize what areas his wife tends to be better in (finances, whatever the case) and consult her in those areas. Also even if it is something he tends to be better in, a good leader would explain his line of thinking to his wife so that she understands where he is coming from, instead of a "this is just how is going to go" type of line. I just don't understand why we are taking the word "Leader" to mean "Dictator", I do take it that in the end you will make the final decision, however I also take it that you will consult your wife on all things, so that she knows her point of view has been considered.

Good post.

Like I said last page...Decisviseness is just ONE leadership trait. Many here (not you) think that making decisions is the epitome of leadership. Like I've illustrated though (below) it's one trait, and w/out utilizing any of the other leadership traits you're essentially just a dictator, and there usually tends to be a revolt against dictators; for this discussion that would be a divorce or cheating.

So for those who think, by making decisions they are leading, they know little about leadership.

You can make all decisions in the world, but without someone being loyal or finding you to be dependable or that you have good judgement to be a sound decision maker. Your decisions will fall on deaf ears, and you will only be making empty decisions w/ no cause to action.

Dependability - The certainty of proper performance of duty.
Bearing - Creating a favorable impression in carriage, appearance and personal conduct at all times.
Courage - The mental quality that recognizes fear of danger or criticism, but enables a man to proceed in the face of it with calmness and firmness.
Decisiveness - Ability to make decisions promptly and to announce them in clear, forceful manner.
Endurance - The mental and physical stamina measured by the ability to withstand pain, fatigue, stress and hardship.
Enthusiasm - The display of sincere interest and exuberance in the performance of duty.
Initiative - Taking action in the absence of orders.
Integrity - Uprightness of character and soundness of moral principles; includes the qualities of truthfulness and honesty.
Judgment - The ability to weigh facts and possible solutions on which to base sound decisions.
Justice - Giving reward and punishment according to merits of the case in question. The ability to administer a system of rewards and punishments impartially and consistently.
Knowledge - Understanding of a science or an art. The range of one's information, including professional knowledge and an understanding of your Marines.
Tact - The ability to deal with others without creating offense.
Unselfishness - Avoidance of providing for one's own comfort and personal advancement at the expense of others.
Loyalty - The quality of faithfulness to country, the Corps, the unit, to one's seniors, subordinates and peers.

[muggins]

Re: Do you believe that the Man should be the LEADER of the relationship? (Stolen)

break it down-

I just don't understand why we are taking the word "Leader" to mean "Dictator",

I do take it that in the end you will make the final decision

That is why. I challenge you to tell any smart woman that you will make the final decision but you'll 'consider' her opinion.

No one is the "leader" between a man and a woman in a relationship. I think it should be equal. I think men will always be the head of the household,

You should link this girl to the definition of contradiction.

[frostbyte06]

Re: Do you believe that the Man should be the LEADER of the relationship? (Stolen)

That is why. I challenge you to tell any smart woman that you will make the final decision but you'll 'consider' her opinion.

You should link this girl to the definition of contradiction.

Some of us have already shown that we are married, therefore we aren't speaking hypothetically, so we obviously have taken your challenge. Also I would like to think that we all consider our wives/girlfriends, "smart women", once again I make reference to the government. The President of the USA makes the final decision (yes I realize the power Congress could exercise), but he is NOT a dictator, he considers the opinion of his cabinet but in the end he makes the final decision. I never implied that the woman would be happy about the divergence, what person (man or woman) would be?


**Side Note**
This discussion has been complicated without an agreed-upon definition of the word "Leader"....oh well

[JBH3]

Re: Do you believe that the Man should be the LEADER of the relationship? (Stolen)

**Side Note**
This discussion has been complicated without an agreed-upon definition of the word "Leader"....oh well

That's the problem. People are trying to re-define "leader" to suit their side of the discussion. There's one definition for the sake of a discussion on marriage: One that leads or guides. And both the man and woman do that in different capacities.

[KG]

Re: Do you believe that the Man should be the LEADER of the relationship? (Stolen)

Depends on the 2 people involved. Some women are more natural leaders than some men and vice versa. I'm not down with telling anyone how their relationship should be. I chose a different line of work.

[muggins]

Re: Do you believe that the Man should be the LEADER of the relationship? (Stolen)

Some of us have already shown that we are married, therefore we aren't speaking hypothetically, so we obviously have taken your challenge. Also I would like to think that we all consider our wives/girlfriends, "smart women", once again I make reference to the government. The President of the USA makes the final decision (yes I realize the power Congress could exercise), but he is NOT a dictator, he considers the opinion of his cabinet but in the end he makes the final decision. I never implied that the woman would be happy about the divergence, what person (man or woman) would be?

Yeah, I just have to wonder about anyone who is willing to enter a long term relationship with someone and share their life financially, physically, and especially have kids with someone who is the boss and will 'consider their opinion' but have the final say. That isn't a partnership at all. That is like some promise keepers BS. My wife would never go for that, neither would my mother or my grandmother or most any other woman I know of. This is 2009, not 1955. There is no reason to have a 'leader'. Marriages are a partnership.

Of course the President of the USA is not a dictator. He can't 'consider opinions'. There are checks and balances. In your description of a marriage where the husband is the leader there are no checks or balances. Poor analogy.