Girl's arrest for doodling raises concerns about zero tolerance

[Phobia]

Re: Girl's arrest for doodling raises concerns about zero tolerance

LMAO it is no point even going further into this with you. You stated "I don't think you know what you're talking about". What the is that supposed to mean, I am stating MY OPINION on the matter. I think I know my point of view. Plus I am not going to get into a pissing match with you of who knows more that is immature.

Bottom line is you can think what you want. I won't and don't agree with you in any way shape or form. So just leave it at that, you think kids are horrible, bad, rude and should be humiliated(your words) because look at what happened with the school shootings. That is a zero tolerance is in effect everyone should obey because well "It is in effect of course". I disagree and will never agree.

This is my point

I don't care if the school came out and said "If you draw on the desk you get to miss school for a good job" or "If you draw on the desk you go to jail". Both outcomes are overboard and from one extreme to the next.

People, parents, principles, etc need to use common sense when it comes to handling things. If she wrote on the desk 99.9% of people and parents would ground, detention, clean up duty, extra homework for this child. VERY few if any would have her hand cuffed and brought to a jail. Even if just for the scare factor. Because it is extreme.

Edit: After going back and rereading some of your comments. You are quite abrasive to say the least.

I suggest if you're in law school perhaps having a little more attention to detail or reading an entire article which you proceed to post a 5 paragraph order on.

Then the whole thing about your wife and teaching. The kids saying things, doing things, etc. What do you think it involves when you deal with kids????? Kids do stupid things it is not a secret and is something that won't change. Part of being a teacher is you have to discipline kids, deal with immature comments, hear rude things, etc. It comes with the territory. Does it make it right? No, but does not change the fact that it will always be apart of what it takes when you sign up to be a teacher.

[JBH3]

Re: Girl's arrest for doodling raises concerns about zero tolerance

LMAO it is no point even going further into this with you. You stated "I don't think you know what you're talking about". What the is that supposed to mean, I am stating MY OPINION on the matter. I think I know my point of view. Plus I am not going to get into a pissing match with you of who knows more that is immature.

I said you don't know what you're talking about because you seem to be lacking details on why things like this happen in schools now a days.

Bottom line is you can think what you want. I won't and don't agree with you in any way shape or form. So just leave it at that, you think kids are horrible, bad, rude and should be humiliated(your words) because look at what happened with the school shootings. That is a zero tolerance is in effect everyone should obey because well "It is in effect of course". I disagree and will never agree.

I never said kids are this way. I have a 2yr old son. I love him and I love kids. I think they should follow the rules though...

I don't think all kids are horrible either. However, it just so happens that 75% of the students my wife teaches ARE that way, and that 75% stretches 5 years of teaching. My wife can count on all her fingers and toes how many good students she has and she teaches 120 students a day.

Then the whole thing about your wife and teaching. The kids saying things, doing things, etc. What do you think it involves when you deal with kids????? Kids do stupid things it is not a secret and is something that won't change. Part of being a teacher is you have to discipline kids, deal with immature comments, hear rude things, etc. It comes with the territory. Does it make it right? No, but does not change the fact that it will always be apart of what it takes when you sign up to be a teacher.

Again. Missing the point. The behavior is getting increasingly worse. Even the biggest behavorial problem child in my highschool would not have left that note that one boy left my wife.

Students in the 60's & 70's would've never thought about doing that because they still paddled kids back then. I've got no problem w/ corporal punishment so long as it's punishment and not torture. My wife gets called a stupid bitch, and the kid gets O.S.S. for a day. Does it do anything? No. Because the next time he/she gets angry w/ her he/she says it again.

Out of School Suspension, w/ all the video games kids have, and stuff at home...especially w/ less and less parental discipline...is vacation today. Plus the parent can't stay at home because they may be working like dogs thanks to our economy.

THIS is the norm today. Since you don't seem to acknowledge it that's why I keeping coming at you.

[Phobia]

Re: Girl's arrest for doodling raises concerns about zero tolerance

I am not missing any point. I understand completely what you are saying. I just don't agree with what you are saying. I know some kids do stupid things. But to say 75% of all kids are bad, rude, crude, etc is also a over statement.

I also understand that there is limited things a teacher can do to discipline a child. Out of school suspension does nothing and is part of the reason I did not mention it ever. I stated other things that could be done to "get to" a child, such as removing their social life for a set period of time. That is huge for most kids. Taking their cell phone, no going hang with friends, etc.

What this sounds like to me is this. You hear stories from your wife how bad the kids are at her school. You then go into protect mode with her and look at all the kids as deviants. You see her being talked down to and disrespected. So then you have this outlook that stricter measures should be taken to nip this in the bud.

See the thing is kids will be bad, kids will do stupid things, but it is no different now a days than it has in the past. Sure paddling kids might of helped a little bit, but in the end kids will make stupid choices no matter what the punishment. Plus teachers and cops can't play parents to each and every child. A lot of blame has to be put on the parents for the kids that continue to disrespect elders. Parenting has more to do with the issues you are linking this with. But a kid doodling on a desk hardly makes her a horrible kid. Stupid little girl decision was all it was.

Doodle = Detention, clean the desks, extra homework
Fighting at school = Expulsion or suspension
Hit or touching a teacher = THEN put some cuffs on them

[JBH3]

Re: Girl's arrest for doodling raises concerns about zero tolerance

I am not missing any point. I understand completely what you are saying. I just don't agree with what you are saying. I know some kids do stupid things. But to say 75% of all kids are bad, rude, crude, etc is also a over statement.

I didn't say or mean 75% of the country's youth population or anything, but a staggering figure like that out of the 120 students my wife teaches each day isn't far off.

I also understand that there is limited things a teacher can do to discipline a child. Out of school suspension does nothing and is part of the reason I did not mention it ever. I stated other things that could be done to "get to" a child, such as removing their social life for a set period of time. That is huge for most kids. Taking their cell phone, no going hang with friends, etc.

The issue w/ the discipline methods outlined here are you're asking the parents of already poorly behaving students to discipline their children w/ things such as no cell phone/social life etc. The school cannot take these things away, and the reason which they ACT UP in school is because their parents do not do these things ALREADY. There's no consequences at home for poor behavior so kids go into school acting the same way.

What this sounds like to me is this. You hear stories from your wife how bad the kids are at her school. You then go into protect mode with her and look at all the kids as deviants. You see her being talked down to and disrespected. So then you have this outlook that stricter measures should be taken to nip this in the bud.

I don't look at ALL of her students as deviants because not ALL are. She has one class of 30 students where she swears up and down that EVERY LAST ONE is a problem. It's just the fact of the matter that kids behavior is getting worse and worse each year in large numbers.

But a kid doodling on a desk hardly makes her a horrible kid. Stupid little girl decision was all it was.

Doodle = Detention, clean the desks, extra homework
Fighting at school = Expulsion or suspension
Hit or touching a teacher = THEN put some cuffs on them

I never said she was horrible. Might've called her brat, and that might be misplaced. In addition, I've got nothing wrong w/ what you outlined above. Only probably here in Alexa's case is that there was a zero tolerance policy so the breakdown of punishment you list is null and void in the case of zero tolerance.

[fishepa]

Re: Girl's arrest for doodling raises concerns about zero tolerance

I don't see the big deal.

[JBH3]

Re: Girl's arrest for doodling raises concerns about zero tolerance

I don't see the big deal.

That's because you're a Marine and understand things such as zero tolerance, no matter how petty something may seem.

[Whitesox]

Re: Girl's arrest for doodling raises concerns about zero tolerance

How did the arresting go?

The article vaguely references it, but nothing really solid.

[daflyboys]

Re: Girl's arrest for doodling raises concerns about zero tolerance

Originally Posted by CX1329
I'm a firm believer when it comes to teaching kids solid moral values, but this is not the way to do it. This is what you do if you want to traumatize and repress a kid for the rest of their life, as the only thing this is going to "teach" that child is to hate all authority when she grows up.

Like I said before, what they should have done was have the child clean up after what she did, then give her detention or a suspension.

Or it teaches her to grow up, and depending on her resolve, take on the idiotic bueracracy that is our public school system (let's all keep in mind from where things trickle down). Further, it could actually help her discern what is true authority and how to apply it vs. what is the definition of idiots who rise to their level of incompetence which unfortunately is more and more around us in all public and private ventures.

Your consequence makes too much sense. Stop it. What do you want? A return to our values and methods that made this country great??!! I'll sick Bill Mauererererererer after you!!!!

(great post)

[Pokes]

Re: Girl's arrest for doodling raises concerns about zero tolerance

Agree with above.

Did the girl deserve to be punished, yes. Did she deserve to be arrested, no.

[Jdurg]

Re: Girl's arrest for doodling raises concerns about zero tolerance

When I was in school, if you got in a fight or did something bad, you didn't get OSS. You got an In-School Suspension where you sat in a room with the head disciplinarian and had to do work from your textbook for the entire duration. Never had to do it myself, but there were very few repeat offendors.

BTW JB, the issue with getting a ticket for having snow on your car is an appropriate punishment. Traffic tickets are designed to keep public safety in mind. If the snow falls off of the top of your car while you're driving 65 mph down the highway, it could kill someone if it flies into their windshield. Speeding tickets aren't designed to just keep us from getting to our destination on time. They are designed to prevent people from driving so fast that they lose control of their car and hurt themselves or somebody.

[opd897]

Re: Girl's arrest for doodling raises concerns about zero tolerance

Agree with above.

Did the girl deserve to be punished, yes. Did she deserve to be arrested, no.

I'll begin by quoting a line out of the movie "Unforgiven". "Deserve has got nothing to do with it". Question is did she commit a crime. If the marker or doodling caused sufficient enough damage to the desk that would cause the school district to be out money to resurface or somehow have to have the desk worked on then a crime of Destruction of Property was committed. The school district then has the right to press charges and call the police.

When the police respond to a call they gather the facts and determine if a crime was committed and exactly what the victim wants done in the case. In this case the school district obviously wanted to press charges. At this point the officer has no choice but to follow through with the victim's wishes. The police officer is not allowed to say something to the effect of "no, this is pretty minor, you just give her detention". As to the handcuffing, different departments have different policies and the officer may well have been following department policy when he did so.

Now, before I go further let me say that I just retired last fall from a police department. Thirty two years of service with the last 15 spent as a School Resource Officer working with middle school and high school kids.

Normally when a school district goes "zero tolerance" it's because the wrist slapping, detentions and other things have not worked. We don't know the history of this school district and the problems they've had or the history of the girl involved. After having been involved with kids and schools I would be willing to bet that there is a history there of some kind. Basically all we have is the media's version of what took place. Anyone who's been around very long knows the slant the media can put on things just for the case of stirring people up and the ratings.

Now, did I ever arrest a kid for drawing on a desk? No. However if there was history there such as this kid had done it before or the school was out two or three desks a day from kids ruining them then you bet I would have. I always worked with my Principals and we handled things with common sense. Sometimes that meant a talking to, sometimes a detention or expulsion and sometimes it meant me hauling them away. We did what we thought we had to so that the kid's behavior would change.

I can tell you this. Schools are NOTHING like they were when I was young. I can remember getting backhanded in the face by a teacher simply for turning around and laughing at what another student had done. That was in the 5th grade. When I was in the 12th grade my shop teacher came up behind me and hit me in the backside with a board just for looking out the window at something. These things would be unheard of today and if they did happen you bet the news would be on it. School officials have little power over kids today and the kids know it. Parents many times are of no help and back their kid no matter what the kid has done. This was rare when I was going to school and based on what I've seen it is just the opposite today. When I meet the parents a lot of the time I would say to myself, "it's no wonder the kid is like he / she is.

Some of you have looked at this story and now your take it "this is what's wrong with the world today". My position is more of a 180, this coming from someone who's been there and done that. At the very least we should take this news story with a grain of salt and bet there is a little more to it than has been reported.

[JBH3]

Re: Girl's arrest for doodling raises concerns about zero tolerance

Now, before I go further let me say that I just retired last fall from a police department. Thirty two years of service with the last 15 spent as a School Resource Officer working with middle school and high school kids.

Normally when a school district goes "zero tolerance" it's because the wrist slapping, detentions and other things have not worked. We don't know the history of this school district and the problems they've had or the history of the girl involved. After having been involved with kids and schools I would be willing to bet that there is a history there of some kind. Basically all we have is the media's version of what took place. Anyone who's been around very long knows the slant the media can put on things just for the case of stirring people up and the ratings.

Now, did I ever arrest a kid for drawing on a desk? No. However if there was history there such as this kid had done it before or the school was out two or three desks a day from kids ruining them then you bet I would have. I always worked with my Principals and we handled things with common sense. Sometimes that meant a talking to, sometimes a detention or expulsion and sometimes it meant me hauling them away. We did what we thought we had to so that the kid's behavior would change.

I can tell you this. Schools are NOTHING like they were when I was young. I can remember getting backhanded in the face by a teacher simply for turning around and laughing at what another student had done. That was in the 5th grade. When I was in the 12th grade my shop teacher came up behind me and hit me in the backside with a board just for looking out the window at something. These things would be unheard of today and if they did happen you bet the news would be on it. School officials have little power over kids today and the kids know it. Parents many times are of no help and back their kid no matter what the kid has done. This was rare when I was going to school and based on what I've seen it is just the opposite today. When I meet the parents a lot of the time I would say to myself, "it's no wonder the kid is like he / she is.

Some of you have looked at this story and now your take it "this is what's wrong with the world today". My position is more of a 180, this coming from someone who's been there and done that. At the very least we should take this news story with a grain of salt and bet there is a little more to it than has been reported.

This was a MUCH needed post. I thank you for reinforcing a lot of what I've been saying from someone on ground zero's perception.

The bolded portion is perhaps the most important aspect, and since school officials have less and less power they enact zero tolerance. Not only do kids know that school officials have no power, but w/ the media and parents meddling in the disciplinarian methods of the schools now kids learn the lesson that they can act up, get punished, cry injustice, and get off.

[sb24]

Re: Girl's arrest for doodling raises concerns about zero tolerance

4 things I learned from this thread......

I am so glad I used the ignore feature months ago.

Just because you are adamant about your point, it does not make you right. I notice its the pushy people that are heard and thats usually the worst thing to happen.

People like to bring up points that have nothing to do with the topic, or use examples that show they dont have a grasp of the situation at hand.

People forget that life isnt black and white. There is almost always a grey area and most situations in life fall into those.

/rant. Now on topic:

I would bet that this girl was put into the principal office and basicly laughed at him. Whatever pusnishment he was going to give, she probably had an attitude of so what, you cant do that to me, and im going to call my mom (what a world we live in where the students threaten their teachers by calling their own parents. What ever happened to a kids worst fear was their parents getting a call from the teacher. Now if a teach calls they are more likely to be yelled at by the parent then anything.). This is really the only way i see the prinicpal getting mad enough to do this.

Thinking of a few of those really bad kids, i dont doubt she could have been one of those girls screaming that she needed a good harsh punsihment. We all know those kids at even young ages that you think "s/he needs to be taught a lesson." The more i have thought about it all the more i can see the schools side. However to see the schools side, it means im making an assumption that this girl has been a big PITA for the school for a while.

Considering I dont have the all facts of the case(havent been released right?) and dont like to assume anything, I would say the school took it way to far.

[Adam Dayton]

Re: Girl's arrest for doodling raises concerns about zero tolerance

A girl that age with such a thing happening to her could be traumatic. The people should be ashamed.

[GAMEC0CK2002]

Re: Girl's arrest for doodling raises concerns about zero tolerance

A girl that age with such a thing happening to her could be traumatic. The people should be ashamed.

Or she can take it as a lesson learned and not deface school property.