2022-23 English Football Thread

[dubcity]

Re: 2022-23 English Football Thread

VAR is ****ed in all leagues. There have been numerous ****ed up decisions in La Liga alone that I can think of. To me the problem is the "clear and obvious" criteria. It feels like the main objective is not to get the call right, but to protect the ref on the field from having calls overturned too frequently and harming his position of authority.

[Krebstar]

Re: 2022-23 English Football Thread

The oh for **** sake isn’t necessary and it starts a negative spin on a healthy discussion. Stop.

That’s great if you are talking about the rare times someone decides to punch, stamp, kick out a player and it goes unseen. Hell I bet guys can’t even agree on what qualifies as blatant. That’s all fine but VAR isn’t implemented solely for that. If you want to implement something for away for the ball, just have a second referee watch back play.if another set of eyes can’t see it then so be it. The sport wasn’t in a dire state of dying all over Europe because of guys getting away with dirty fouls. There is no clear line to say exactly when something g is obvious or not obvious. Dangerous or not dangerous. It’s still half interpretation. Get a higher referee standard.

It’s also used for tinkly tack fouls, hairline offsides, judgment handballs, judgement 50/50 balls, fouls where a stud is up but 6 inches off the ground, etc, fouls that occurred 30 seconds earlier, etc. it’s also NOT used to punish when guys intentionally cheat the game by feigning a foul which happens so much more frequently.

I felt it was necessary to show the confusion I have because “the concept isn’t flawed, the execution is” doesn’t seem to be enough.

You keep mentioning other things it’s used for and shouldn’t be—the concept is not flawed, but the execution is.

‘VAR’ as an idea, as an extra enforcement of rules, should exist. It not existing in the state it should does not mean an absolution is the correct course, even if it’s the easiest.

Is “Some of the stuff I’ve read here about guys being dirty or violent is laughable in my opinion.” part of a healthy discussion? I intentionally didn’t quote it last post, as it’s an expected retread of what seems to constituent what Vinnie (spelt Vinny at first, silly me) Jones thinks about modern football. I get it, guys are soft—I get it—we all do, but there’s also a lot of non-football **** that happens and is gotten away with.

I’ll leave it at this—an argument against VAR entirely is an argument against rules enforcement, as four officials (one running around the field, two focusing on last defenders, and one being a daycare on the sideline) is not enough to cover twenty-two players.

[Keirik]

Re: 2022-23 English Football Thread

I felt it was necessary to show the confusion I have because “the concept isn’t flawed, the execution is” doesn’t seem to be enough.

You keep mentioning other things it’s used for and shouldn’t be—the concept is not flawed, but the execution is.

‘VAR’ as an idea, as an extra enforcement of rules, should exist. It not existing in the state it should does not mean an absolution is the correct course, even if it’s the easiest.

Is “Some of the stuff I’ve read here about guys being dirty or violent is laughable in my opinion.” part of a healthy discussion? I intentionally didn’t quote it last post, as it’s an expected retread of what seems to constituent what Vinnie (spelt Vinny at first, silly me) Jones thinks about modern football. I get it, guys are soft—I get it—we all do, but there’s also a lot of non-football **** that happens and is gotten away with.

I’ll leave it at this—an argument against VAR entirely is an argument against rules enforcement, as four officials (one running around the field, two focusing on last defenders, and one being a daycare on the sideline) is not enough to cover twenty-two players.

Absolutely what I’m saying is part of a healthy conversation. I’m not saying your term is laughable. I’m saying what some things I’ve witnessed as called violent is. What I find violent and what another person finds violent might be different. I haven’t seen what Vinny Jones said. I’m more of an off the ball guy for some of my opinions. Okay your opinion is that the concept isn’t flawed but the execution is. I’ve already understood your opinion. I don’t agree with it and it’s not because players are soft, Vinny Jones, Roy Keane, Modern player X, etc. I don’t agree with it because I don’t mind some things slipping through the cracks. I would rather it be left to the teams and players even if that means some bend the rules, or some keep an old incident in the back of their mind as motivation for the next time. Or by letting the scoreboard dictate their payback. I don’t believe the risk of ruining the organic nature of the sport is worth the reward. There is no exact line to draw in 99% of fouls of any kind that occur in the game and I don’t want to change the flow for that 1% regardless of how egregious it is. If you’re saying only to have VAR to catch that 1% then I understand your point but I still disagree because we all still will differ as to what line that 1% is it.

Being against VAR is not an argument against “rules enforcement.” If we are going to say that, then every corner, goalkick, ball out on the sidelines should be reviewed too no? Haven’t we all seen countless calls on almost a game by game basis of a goal kick when the defender had the last touch or vice versa where both sides are raising their arms as if it’s their ball? That’s directly against the rule of the game. Being against VAR is by thinking the negatives outweigh the positives and even with it, it doesn’t even end controversies one bit.

[KG]

Re: 2022-23 English Football Thread

The oh for **** sake isn’t necessary and it starts a negative spin on a healthy discussion. Stop. I’m just giving my opinion after 47 years on this rock and quite a large chunk of it in the sport.

That’s great if you are talking about the rare times someone decides to punch, stamp, kick out a player and it goes unseen. Hell I bet guys can’t even agree on what qualifies as blatant. That’s all fine but VAR isn’t implemented solely for that. If you want to implement something for away for the ball, just have a second referee watch back play.if another set of eyes can’t see it then so be it. The sport wasn’t in a dire state of dying all over Europe because of guys getting away with dirty fouls. There is no clear line to say exactly when something g is obvious or not obvious. Dangerous or not dangerous. It’s still half interpretation. Get a higher referee standard.

It’s also used for tinkly tack fouls, hairline offsides, judgment handballs, judgement 50/50 balls, fouls where a stud is up but 6 inches off the ground, etc, fouls that occurred 30 seconds earlier, etc. it’s also NOT used to punish when guys intentionally cheat the game by feigning a foul which happens so much more frequently.

I think it's easier to implement VAR in a better way (I don't think you should be able to go back into the build-up of a goal to look for a foul that rules out a goal for example) than it is to increase the referee standard but that's just my personal opinion. I think it was the WC 2018 that had no English refs which just tells you something about crappy the ref pool is and it's a relatively young pool at that.

All clubs are against VAR when it effs them over but I watch enough Bundesliga/La Liga/Serie A to see the right calls made more often than not when compared to the EPL.

It's weird that the quality of the product in the league is at the highest it's ever been but the officiating is driving some folks away.

Just my .02

[Krebstar]

Re: 2022-23 English Football Thread

I think it was the WC 2018 that had no English refs which just tells you something about crappy the ref pool is and it's a relatively young pool at that.

I remember looking last year, and there also an insanely small amount chose for the Champions League, or just none at all especially in the later stages. I don't recall exactly the situation, state of competition, but I recall taking note of just how awful UEFA knows the PGMOL and its officials are.

The later the CL gets in the competition, it seems the rarer it is for an English referee/crew to be selected—that's damning of the entire league.


Follow-up to that, I know it could be said that because English teams progress, they're less likely to have an English referee. This is true, but even in the non-English club ties, English referees still do not seem to be as common. Michael Oliver was the only English referee used in the round of sixteen last season, and Anthony Taylor was used in the quarter finals.

[Keirik]

Re: 2022-23 English Football Thread

I think it's easier to implement VAR in a better way (I don't think you should be able to go back into the build-up of a goal to look for a foul that rules out a goal for example) than it is to increase the referee standard but that's just my personal opinion. I think it was the WC 2018 that had no English refs which just tells you something about crappy the ref pool is and it's a relatively young pool at that.

All clubs are against VAR when it effs them over but I watch enough Bundesliga/La Liga/Serie A to see the right calls made more often than not when compared to the EPL.

It's weird that the quality of the product in the league is at the highest it's ever been but the officiating is driving some folks away.

Just my .02

There is a lot of truth in that and I don't think you'll hear one person say that the English league has top level referees. That needs to vastly improve. In my opinion, that's independent of VAR.

I still stand by my opinion that VAR itself does more harm than good in the long run of the game. I'd be more inclined to the addition of another set of eyes on the pitch rather than someone watching slow motion replays after the fact trying to decifer a play. If it can't be seen in real time at real speed then so be it. On with it.

[Keirik]

Re: 2022-23 English Football Thread

VAR is ****ed in all leagues. There have been numerous ****ed up decisions in La Liga alone that I can think of. To me the problem is the "clear and obvious" criteria. It feels like the main objective is not to get the call right, but to protect the ref on the field from having calls overturned too frequently and harming his position of authority.

Exactly this. VAR is a security blanket. Don't need to worry about much of a decision when it can just be taken apart 35 seconds later in super slow motion. Nevermind the fact the idea itself is that another referee is just telling the on field referee he believes it's a wrong decision which by nature makes anyone second guess themselves anyway.

That "clear and obvious" is so subjective. Where do you draw the line in that? What's violent to u or I? Whats clearly a foul to you or i? Hell even offside. 5 ft offside is clear. 3 feet is clear. What about 18 inches? What about a foot? Where is it decided to be obvious on an ever changing line? If it wasn't and it's by a freaking fingernail, is it better for the spirit of the game to get that "right" after 3 minutes of super slow motion? How is it even 100% obvious EVER for the exsctly second it left your foot for the pass ? camera angle exactly dead on?

[Brahvocado]

Re: 2022-23 English Football Thread

You don’t have to look any further than Rugby if you want to see the kinds of standards possible for refereeing, including seamless VAR implementation.

You can have VAR without it being a burden on the flow of the game, it just has to be implemented better.

I’ve been saying forever that they need to change the interaction between players and refs. Mic the refs up and harsh penalties for surrounding the ref, only ONE player(captain) is ever allowed to talk to the ref etc. In general it’s always driven me nuts how ****ty players act towards refs and it just makes their job so much more difficult and stressful than it already is.

This would help with VAR too, as without players freaking out and rushing the ref, VAR would be left to do the job advertised; checking plays while the game is still going.

[Krebstar]

Re: 2022-23 English Football Thread

You don’t have to look any further than Rugby if you want to see the kinds of standards possible for refereeing, including seamless VAR implementation.

You can have VAR without it being a burden on the flow of the game, it just has to be implemented better.

I’ve been saying forever that they need to change the interaction between players and refs. Mic the refs up and harsh penalties for surrounding the ref, only ONE player(captain) is ever allowed to talk to the ref etc. In general it’s always driven me nuts how ****ty players act towards refs and it just makes their job so much more difficult and stressful than it already is.

This would help with VAR too, as without players freaking out and rushing the ref, VAR would be left to do the job advertised; checking plays while the game is still going.

I attempted to find a Nigel Owens approval gif or some sorts for this, but I came up short, so instead I'll just say: Bingo.

I'll also say that something rugby has in spades over football is a culture where it's accepted to evaluate the referee's performance publicly, to an extent, in an objective manner, even if it's amongst pundits.

[Brahvocado]

Re: 2022-23 English Football Thread

Rugby handles everything related to discipline better than soccer by several miles, it's not even close. I wish there was some kind of initiative to revamp soccer refereeing but sadly the people in charge don't seem to want any change at all.

[dubcity]

Re: 2022-23 English Football Thread

Rugby handles everything related to discipline better than soccer by several miles, it's not even close. I wish there was some kind of initiative to revamp soccer refereeing but sadly the people in charge don't seem to want any change at all.

It's way way to late to change the culture. Generations of players rushing towards refs, opening insulting them, demanding that players get sent off when their teammate fakes getting fouled, straight up trying to mislead refs, etc. I look at rugby the way I look at NFL in terms of the player/ref dynamic, while soccer is like baseball/basketball. The physicality weeds out enough of the bitches. In baseball, basketball and soccer the refs are constantly being manipulated and **** talked.

[ImTellinTim]

Re: 2022-23 English Football Thread

The sport’s referees are also only surpassed by MLB umpires in terms of inflated sense of importance and fragile egos.

[Krebstar]

Re: 2022-23 English Football Thread

The sport’s referees are also only surpassed by MLB umpires in terms of inflated sense of importance and fragile egos.

Mike Dean, the Joe West of England.

[Keirik]

Re: 2022-23 English Football Thread

Who gets to be the English Angel Hernandez ?

[ImTellinTim]

Re: 2022-23 English Football Thread

Who gets to be the English Angel Hernandez ?

We switch Mike Dean to Angel Hernandez and assign Joe West to Mark Clattenburg.