Some Madden NFL 18 Game Style Details Revealed - Arcade, Simulation, Competitive

[DeuceDouglas]

Quote: Originally Posted by roadman

Wow, I don't recall marketing dropping that, but that is indefensible, no pun intended.

They do this stuff every year and it just kind of gets forgotten. I don't really remember seeing that either back then but looking back at it now makes it look extremely foolish. Here's a quote from an article talking about M17 last year:

Quote:

300 draft picks have been scanned Whisper it, but for a number of Madden casuals (and FIFA players, for that matter) realism doesn’t come down to offensive line stunts and the ability to implement a true 0 Flood Flank Fip R-34 Flash A Shark play. Instead, it’s about something much more simple: slinging deep passes with players who look like their real life counterparts. Producing a game which sates both sets of fans is one of the dev team’s toughest challenges, but in terms of likenesses they’ve been helped for Madden 17 by being given greater access to new NFL players than ever before. “This year we went to the scouting combine, where the NFL says, ‘these are the top 300 players that everyone should care about.’ We went and we scanned every last one of them,” says Hoag – a former college lineman who’s now a senior member of Madden’s presentation team. “They’re ready to go in this year’s game. Some of those players are very awe-stricken; everyone growing up now wants to be in Madden, so this is a cool thing for them. It’s their first taste of ‘holy crap, this is real! I’m going to be in the NFL!’’’

Not particular as damning as true to life QB AI but still something I'm not sure they even got close to having be true. Is what it is though. The entire run up to release is nothing more than full on marketing mode.

EDIT: Just to add, going back to last year I also found it interesting that they actually went back and deleted the "Completely overhauled" tweet used to reply to someone asking what was done for CFM for 17.

[adembroski]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

I take umbrage with the bold and I'm wondering if you're confusing the VIP from 2k, which originated on the Sega Dreamcast, with some other version. The poster you quoted mentioned 2k's VIP, which if it's the one from the Dreamcast, was awesome and ahead of it's time. I don't know this for sure but I wouldn't be surprised if that tech laid the groundwork for untold advancement in 2k's current AI systems, across the board. I won't go too much into it but the VIP system theoretically would allow for giving in-game Coaches, GMs, players and general applicable AI distinct strategies and tendencies, based on actual Users. I even recall EA Tib hinting at a similar system in M15 for QBs http://www.goodgamebro.com/community...nts/9-jpg.851/

VIP in NFL 2k5, specifically.

It doesn't matter one iota if you know on what percentage of snaps your opponent blitzes when you don't know in what situations it blitzes, out of what fronts, against what formations, and the nature of those blitzes. More importantly, against what opponents. In short, if you cannot determine why they blitzed on a given play, and why a particular blitz is called, you have no real information at all.

NFL coaches strive to be unpredictable, but not random. A randomly called gameplan is no gameplan at all, and all VIP did was ensure a few meaninglesss statistics were met. It was not tactical play calling, it was weighted dice. No better than Madden's weighted gameplans.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Operation Sports mobile app

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by adembroski

VIP in NFL 2k5, specifically. It doesn't matter one iota if you know on what percentage of snaps your opponent blitzes when you don't know in what situations it blitzes, out of what fronts, against what formations, and the nature of those blitzes. More importantly, against what opponents. In short, if you cannot determine why they blitzed on a given play, and why a particular blitz is called, you have no real information at all. NFL coaches strive to be unpredictable, but not random. A randomly called gameplan is no gameplan at all, and all VIP did was ensure a few meaninglesss statistics were met. It was not tactical play calling, it was weighted dice. No better than Madden's weighted gameplans. Sent from my SM-G930P using Operation Sports mobile app

IDK if my memory is off, yours or both, then again maybe we are talking about two different things, lol. I think the VIP allowed a digital recording of sorts, of a User's play calling tendencies, adjustments and even on field User control, ie jukes, spins, special moves, etc.

It seems you are referring to it simply as some kind of visual scouting report but I think this is the system that allowed anyone to actually play against someone else's profile. I don't recall ever trying to use any displayed data to scout an opponent or another User, I utilized it to essentially actually scrimmage against friends tactics and for a better challenge than the standard AI/CPU. For those purposes it seemed phenomenal, playing against the VIP of a friend, former online opponent or some featured VIP that was available from a NFL coach, actor, etc, was certainly different than playing standard AI.

Whichever system or nfl2k game it was that had that, seemed to be way more in depth than what you are portraying.

[adembroski]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

IDK if my memory is off, yours or both, then again maybe we are talking about two different things, lol. I think the VIP allowed a digital recording of sorts, of a User's play calling tendencies, adjustments and even on field User control, ie jukes, spins, special moves, etc. It seems you are referring to it simply as some kind of visual scouting report but I think this is the system that allowed anyone to actually play against someone else's profile. I don't recall ever trying to use any displayed data to scout an opponent or another User, I utilized it to essentially actually scrimmage against friends tactics and for a better challenge than the standard AI/CPU. For those purposes it seemed phenomenal, playing against the VIP of a friend, former online opponent or some featured VIP that was available from a NFL coach, actor, etc, was certainly different than playing standard AI. Whichever system or nfl2k game it was that had that, seemed to be way more in depth than what you are portraying.

What I'm saying is using all that information to recreate the play style of the individual didn't work worth a **** because it was based on completely uncontextualized data.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Operation Sports mobile app

[OhMrHanky]

Quote: Originally Posted by adembroski

What I'm saying is using all that information to recreate the play style of the individual didn't work worth a **** because it was based on completely uncontextualized data. Sent from my SM-G930P using Operation Sports mobile app

'Uncontextualized'? U sure? I don't know for sure, either, to be honest. But, my impression of the VIP was that it would most likely take context into account. I guess we could argue what makes up 'context'? Lol. For me, at the very least, I believe it knew, '3rd and 20', 'I blitz, often'. Or, 2nd and 5, I run often. Or, 4th and 1, I always go for it, or something of that nature. And, if you call random stuff, than random stuff should be chosen. I'm not saying it was amazing, and it's been awhile since I played 2k5, lol, so there's no way I would remember. But, I remember being somewhat impressed. And, at least, theoretically, what I liked most is that I play a sim style making sim type play calls. So, if the VIP picks that up, and then it seems it would make better playcalls. But, I have no idea how good the code was under the hood.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by adembroski

What I'm saying is using all that information to recreate the play style of the individual didn't work worth a **** because it was based on completely uncontextualized data. Sent from my SM-G930P using Operation Sports mobile app

Well at least I now know we are referring to the same thing but we just have a difference of opinion about it, no biggie. For me it accomplished what it was designed to do and I found it enjoyable, far more fun than just playing the traditional CPU/AI.

[ODogg]

Quote: Originally Posted by adembroski

What I'm saying is using all that information to recreate the play style of the individual didn't work worth a **** because it was based on completely uncontextualized data. Sent from my SM-G930P using Operation Sports mobile app

And you know this how? You're making a huge assumption that it was just all randomly put together without any context. How do you know it didn't take into account down, distance and other information when it was pulling tendencies?

[adembroski]

Quote: Originally Posted by OhMrHanky

'Uncontextualized'? U sure? I don't know for sure, either, to be honest. But, my impression of the VIP was that it would most likely take context into account. I guess we could argue what makes up 'context'? Lol. For me, at the very least, I believe it knew, '3rd and 20', 'I blitz, often'. Or, 2nd and 5, I run often. Or, 4th and 1, I always go for it, or something of that nature. And, if you call random stuff, than random stuff should be chosen. I'm not saying it was amazing, and it's been awhile since I played 2k5, lol, so there's no way I would remember. But, I remember being somewhat impressed. And, at least, theoretically, what I liked most is that I play a sim style making sim type play calls. So, if the VIP picks that up, and then it seems it would make better playcalls. But, I have no idea how good the code was under the hood. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Uncontextual, non-contextual, out of context, whatever, the point is this...



I don't just "hurry to the line" on any 11% of plays, I hurry to the line when it's appropriate. I don't just randomly flip the play. I flip the play based on the routes being run on either side of the field, the coverage, and my QB's arm strength. There's no context being tracked. WHY do I flip the play? What am I trying to accomplish? What happens on those particular 13% of plays that compels me to make that decision?

No, VIP just flips the play anytime it decides this is one of 13 out of every 100 plays it must do so in order to replicate your play style. It's smoke and mirrors, it's weak, and it's pointless. A much more robust system can be built fairly easily (in fact, the guy who posted the franchise mode rebuild had a similar idea to mine that, while flawed, is infinitely better than VIP was.)

VIP was a concept worth exploring, but it was shallow and poorly designed. Sure, a VIP profile might have been more interesting to play, but not because you were actually getting a replication of an intelligent opponent, a reasonable artificial intelligence, but only because the AI had it's dice weighted toward particular decisions that were different from what the base AI did, thus it was different.

Not better. Just different.