Let's talk sim; designing mechanics for the realism fan

[Brownsfans25]

Quote: Originally Posted by extremeskins04

You're asking this in multiple threads now. I asked them in the Twitter but they haven't responded yet. Relax bud.

Im sorry how do you ask them ill try to ask to

P.s who do i ask rex?

[CM Hooe]

I loathe the idea of moving my thumb back and forth from the right stick to the face buttons as a requirement for success in Madden. We already tried that, and my hands still hurt a decade later. If you want to continue to emphasize stick skills over strategy in Madden but in an artificial capacity, that is exactly the way to do it, IMO.

I think I'd like this idea a whole lot more if a couple other changes was made in tandem with it:

1 - while not holding RT / R2 (i.e. while not scrambling), the game would now severely restrict QB movement. A flick of the left stick in a given direction will change the QB's facing (what you're currently using RS for to change what "zone" he's looking at, though I hope there's no obnoxious UI overlay for this), while holding the left stick for a longer-than-flick period of time will allow the user to step up in the pocket, side step a pass rush, and other more subtle pocket movements.

2 - ability to assign a pre-snap "hot" receiver which my QB starts his progression at once the ball is snapped; this affects which way my QB turns his head at the start of the play. If I don't set a hot receiver, there is no benefit or penalty, it's strictly a set-up step for the rest of the mechanic.

3 - similar to Target Passing in M18, I'd like this mechanic to be positioned as a skill ceiling mechanic and made completely optional. If I don't use this, I want passing basically to behave like it does in M17 and will in M18. However, if I do use this mechanic and master it, I give myself a leg up on my competition by directly manipulating their defense during pass plays, and if I use it and I'm not good at it I want there to be an obvious penalty, such as staring down my receiver and creating easy interception opportunities for my opponent.

Also agree wholeheartedly that whatever gameplay mechanics are added, the commentary team should talk about them when they are used. That level of feedback from the game telling me when I did good and when I screwed up is always welcome.

[adembroski]

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

I loathe the idea of moving my thumb back and forth from the right stick to the face buttons as a requirement for success in Madden. We already tried that, and my hands still hurt a decade later. If you want to continue to emphasize stick skills over strategy in Madden but in an artificial capacity, that is exactly the way to do it, IMO. I think I'd like this idea a whole lot more if a couple other changes was made in tandem with it: 1 - while not holding RT / R2 (i.e. while not scrambling), the game would now severely restrict QB movement. A flick of the left stick in a given direction will change the QB's facing (what you're currently using RS for to change what "zone" he's looking at, though I hope there's no obnoxious UI overlay for this), while holding the left stick for a longer-than-flick period of time will allow the user to step up in the pocket, side step a pass rush, and other more subtle pocket movements.

Goddamn it, I actually thought of this a few days ago but spaced on it when I finally put this post together. Comes with the disorganization of not actually being behind an EA desk, I suppose. Anyways, I agree completely.

I was thinking flick left stick changes facing, holding adjusts within the pocket, and right trigger shifts to scramble mode.

And no, no overlay. The feedback graphic would show this, but it wouldn't appear on screen in replays or during play. If you remember the top-down PiP view from MVP, which would show a sort of heat-map of the batter's contact rating, that's what I'm thinking.

Quote:

2 - ability to assign a pre-snap "hot" receiver which my QB starts his progression at once the ball is snapped; this affects which way my QB turns his head at the start of the play. If I don't set a hot receiver, there is no benefit or penalty, it's strictly a set-up step for the rest of the mechanic.

I didn't include this because I didn't want to include every single detail, but my thought was you'd automatically face your "primary" at a given point in the drop.

For instance, if you've got a 5 step drop, generally your "primary" before you hit step 5 is your hot receiver (the real hot receiver, not what Madden calls a hot route) and you'll automatically face him when you being the throw at the 3rd step.

Quote:

3 - similar to Target Passing in M18, I'd like this mechanic to be positioned as a skill ceiling mechanic and made completely optional. If I don't use this, I want passing basically to behave like it does in M17 and will in M18. However, if I do use this mechanic and master it, I give myself a leg up on my competition by directly manipulating their defense during pass plays, and if I use it and I'm not good at it I want there to be an obvious penalty, such as staring down my receiver and creating easy interception opportunities for my opponent.

Another thing I omitted for brevity. The idea is if you keep your view centered, you get generally average results across the board. If you never adjust facing, you never really see the difference.

I do like the idea of a preset facing that you'll take on, but is this preset going to take effect at the top of the drop or immediately after the snap? The latter, I think, would make more sense.

Ultimately, the idea here is to incorporate MORE QB ratings and create a more dynamic system that simultaneously gives the user greater control and makes the game more sim.

Again, as I said at the beginning, I'm defining sim here within the context of Madden gameplay. Right now, the fact that usering the QB means his intelligence and experience become completely irrelevant is decided non-sim.

Next question; does the hitch step happen automatically? I haven't decided this.

For those unaware, the hitch step is the "climbing the pocket" step made after hitting the top of the drop. Usually the secondary receivers are timed to this step. Right now, all drops end at the top of the drop and the hitch step must be manually performed.

[CM Hooe]

Quote: Originally Posted by adembroski

For those unaware, the hitch step is the "climbing the pocket" step made after hitting the top of the drop. Usually the secondary receivers are timed to this step. Right now, all drops end at the top of the drop and the hitch step must be manually performed.

As someone who actually makes a concerted effort to climb the pocket in M17 (with varying degrees of success), I think it probably makes sense to keep that hitch step as manual input.

That said, I think I'd also encourage the user to make that step on his own by making some related adjustments - I'd make the pocket form tighter foremost to discourage lateral movement, second I'd get the DEs and OTs moving better to form a deeper and more realistic pocket (not sure what the technical term for this is, admittedly), and third I'd give the edge rushers some more bend and more ability to flatten out once they reach their landmarks (especially freaks like Von Miller, it basically ought to be a requirement to step up into the pocket to stay away from him).

[SyncereBlackout]

Quote: Originally Posted by adembroski

Did I say right trigger? I meant right stick. I'll go back and fix it when I have a few minutes. If you're facing center, flick left to face the middle left zone. The QB resets his feet oriented around 40 degrees left and gains time-on-target with receivers in that zone. Sent from my SM-G930P using Operation Sports mobile app

In that case I take back my comment. A flick to 1 of 3 zones is not burdensome and I'm fully onboard, but would prefer to keep my right thumb on the passing buttons. (I'm getting old and my reflexes aren't what they used to be). Could LS be used for drop back and then flicked (vs held) to face a position.

I would prefer to use right stick to pump fake, throw the ball away, slide if scrambling etc.

This would mean we abandon the shift in pocket functionality currently on the right stick (which I find clunky and ineffective)

With this approach will all WR icons be visible, available if the qb is not facing them?

the plays would need to clearly delineate the number of qb steps, and given the importance of footwork and timing, the drop back and hitch should be tied to the formation and strength of the pocket. A 5 step drop on a 3 step play call should incur a penalty by way of edge pressure etc. (which would more likely than not occur irl) the same would apply to the infamous 10 step drop.

[ForUntoOblivionSoar∞]

Quote: Originally Posted by SyncereBlackout

In that case I take back my comment. A flick to 1 of 3 zones is not burdensome and I'm fully onboard, but would prefer to keep my right thumb on the passing buttons. (I'm getting old and my reflexes aren't what they used to be). Could LS be used for drop back and then flicked (vs held) to face a position. I would prefer to use right stick to pump fake, throw the ball away, slide if scrambling etc. This would mean we abandon the shift in pocket functionality currently on the right stick (which I find clunky and ineffective) With this approach will all WR icons be visible, available if the qb is not facing them? the plays would need to clearly delineate the number of qb steps, and given the importance of footwork and timing, the drop back and hitch should be tied to the formation and strength of the pocket. A 5 step drop on a 3 step play call should incur a penalty by way of edge pressure etc. (which would more likely than not occur irl) the same would apply to the infamous 10 step drop.

Could just press L1 and R1 to change body position if we're doing just three zones. Presnap you can decide which your QB starts in, then postsnap you press L1 to go to the zone immediately to the left, and R1 to go right (if you're in the far right zone, press L1 twice to move to the far left). And of course bring the accuracy penalties for throwing out of position.

It's similar to the vision cone, but the only visual indication is the direction you are facing (thank god... on field cones and such are gross).

I don't think there should be a huge variation in QBs based on ratings with this particular thing, because ALL QBs are more accurate when they square their shoulders up toward their target. Even guys who are really good at throwing out of position are better when throwing from a good base.

[ForUntoOblivionSoar∞]

Quote: Originally Posted by extremeskins04

Not sure where this response came from. You're going to tell people they aren't sim? I mean seriously. But I'll just say that I regard sim as the closest you can get the real NFL from the offseason, preseason, regular season to the post season. Stats, trades, FA, Scouting, Draft, the amount of plays per game that are ran, everything. I could list 100 things. I mean heck I still have this dream of EA adding in some kind of attribute or trait to determine whether players get in "off the field trouble" where they get fines and suspensions, etc. Just my opinion of course.

Yes, I shall, if you'll humor me. The entire reason the word "sim" has entered the Madden lexicon is because people wanted to "simulate the NFL." If your league doesn't strive to "simulate the NFL" you're not in league dedicated to simulation football. I suppose you could replace "simulate the NFL" with "simulate real football." But the point is, playing sim is attempting to make the games played come as close as possible to real football within the scope of the limitations created by the game engine.

Now granted, you could argue there are degrees of sim. Some leagues are closer to the ideal of true NFL simulation than others. But I would say the leagues who attempt to find ways to compensate for Madden's engine in a way that brings game play closer to what is seen on Sundays is "more sim" than leagues who don't care to go to the trouble.

If you're in a dedicated sim league and you're getting five 2000 rushers every season, your commissioner is going to adjust the sliders to make rushing a little harder, or adjust the house rules, to compensate for an obvious flaw in the game engine. That is what sim leagues do. Because they want to "simulate the NFL," they try to fix flaws in the engine that lend themselves to unrealistic football as much as possible.

[NDAlum]

I'll just touch on the thing that hits home most to me and really ruined M17 for me:

WR's & lead passing

I think this is the most unsim feature ever put into the game. Well not the idea, but the implementation. I understand being able to give the user the ability to place the ball in a certain place...or an idea to try to let a QB put a ball in a spot. But the extreme this has been taken is disgusting, to me. You can completely change routes. Not only that you can lead WR's on crossing routes to create an artificial speed burst which creates false separation and inflated YAC.

What I want this to be: I want it to be placing a ball in the catch radius of the WR. That and SLIGHTLY taking a WR off course to adjust the route.

One feature I'm hoping isn't too difficult to get in that I really, really want:

Real kicker %

Just like NBA 2K has real FG%and real FT%. I am tired of the easiness of FG's. Give me this or break down the FG sliders for yardage: 0-29, 30-39, 40-49, 50+

Who am I kidding like those sliders would even work...smh