Let's talk sim; designing mechanics for the realism fan

[adembroski]

So this is an ongoing conversation in another thread, but I really think it needs its own, especially if the Dev's stated intentions, to respond to the community needs with tuning, is true.

I'm going to take it a step further though.

Right at the start, lets dispense with the "only coach mode is real sim" angle. To the extent that that's true, it's not useful to this conversation. We're discussing this in the context of Madden, not Head Coach or Front Office. User control is a key aspect, and we do not want to dilute that.

My favorite sports game of all time is MVP Baseball 2005. It's my favorite because it never diluted user control, but was transparently sim through the technique of making the player being controlled by the user a sort of handicap. You had full control over when you swing, swing technique, etc.., but player ratings made those things harder or easier.

How do we incorporate that into Madden?

Lets look at a potential passing system that might translate MVP's design principles into Madden in a way that does nothing to reduce control of the user, but makes a more realistic, sim style game. I'm not going to flesh this out like a real design, because the under-the-hood numbers would require hours of prototyping and testing before I could even put together an outline. This is written only from the QBs perspective, control of the WR/CB are for another time. This is just high concept.

I'm designing this in a vacuum, things like pressure, QB being hit, WR being chucked, etc.. would be built into the system later. For now, imagine we're on the practice field with a C, QB, WR, and CB.

A few new concepts.

* We will divide routes into two broad categories; timing routes and tracking routes. Each of these will be treated slightly differently, as outlined below.

* QBs will have a new attribute, Footwork.

* Right Stick will become the QB facing control. To be absolutely clear; this is not QB vision. It shares some characteristics, but it's much simpler to use. There will be a "cone", we'll call it field of view, and it's the same for all QBs. This is split into 5 zones covering 180

What we're determining is the accuracy of a pass. Lets get this out of the way; a "perfect" throw is always possible from an unmolested QB, but the user must be perfect in order to produce it. The skill level of the QB will determine how perfect he must be.

Timing routes are tied to a step on the drop. There are effectively 3 points on any given drop you can tie too- the 3 step cutoff, the top of the drop, and the hitch step. Each timing route will be tied to this. By this I mean each route, not an entire pattern.

For instance, on a given play a flat route might be tied to the third step, a dig route to the 5th step, and a deep out route to the hitch step.

By pressing the button within a window of time, you increase the accuracy of your throw. Late throws or early throws will be less accurate.

Key note: should you miss the window completely, you can effectively turn any timing route into a tracking route.

The new attribute, footwork, dictates the consistency of the drop animations. A very high footwork attribute means your QB will perform their drops exactly the same every time, so you'll be able to easily get a feel for the perfect timing and never have to look at your QB. A very low footwork results in wildly varying times that are difficult to get a feel for. You'll be forced to occasionally glance down at your QB in order to try to improve the timing.

Tracking routes simply means the QB needs to visually track the location of his receiver. Fly routes, post routes (sometimes), drags, and seams are all tracking routes.

The accuracy of this throw is simply time-on-target. The longer your Field of View is centered on said receiver, the more accurate the throw will be. 99 Accuracy QBs will be able to hit these in stride if you hit the button while facing a different "zone." Low accuracy Qbs will need to readjust to face the receiver and then release the throw. (added bonus; we can depict the QB actually readjusting and facing different directions in the pocket).

Why would you not simply 'face' your QB at whatever receiver you intend from the start? Because that would draw the defenders. Keeping your QB centered directly downfield or away from your intended receiver creates the greatest uncertainty in defenders.

I wont get into coverage, but I will cover DB reaction time here.

DBs react the ball in air in Zone, the quickness of the reaction is determined by opposed attribute checks (in this case ZCV vs. QB AWR), in Man they react to the WRs break, an opposed check as well (MCV vs. RTR). This is the simple explanation, you might build on this so elite speed defenders (Deion Sanders, Darrell Green) can play always with outside leverage, always reacting to ball in air.

The final MVP step is to include feedback. This can be done subtlety, in replays with commentary, or overtly with overlays and PiP presentation. Users should be informed when they do it wrong or right, and should know how to correct without it being intrusive.

TLR summary; This is a system in which the users timing of a throw or the patience in centering on a target determine the accuracy of a given pass. The design principle is to bring an element of "simulation" without reducing user control.

[young22]

I think passing would benefit from a meter like how 2k does it. Give us a meter(on/off option, but mechanic always there), and feedback (release, pressure, overall grade). No greens though, we've seen how that's ruined 2k.

Sent from my SM-G386W using Operation Sports mobile app

[SyncereBlackout]

As someone who was a fan of the vision cone I like the direction this is going with one major exception, I do not see the value in using the right trigger for QB facing. While I get the idea, it can become cumbersome to use (much like the existing right thumb stick controls) and are a recipe for quickly returning to the passing buttons. (The qb vision quick look was a bandaid for this)

Instead, I am kind of excited about the idea of timing system. I would like to see the left thumb responsible for the drop back, and hitch step. The speed or fluency of the footwork is based on the footwork attribute.

Let me know if I'm way of here (from the intent of your post)

[adembroski]

Quote: Originally Posted by SyncereBlackout

As someone who was a fan of the vision cone I like the direction this is going with one major exception, I do not see the value in using the right trigger for QB facing. While I get the idea, it can become cumbersome to use (much like the existing right thumb stick controls) and are a recipe for quickly returning to the passing buttons. (The qb vision quick look was a bandaid for this) Instead, I am kind of excited about the idea of timing system. I would like to see the left thumb responsible for the drop back, and hitch step. The speed or fluency of the footwork is based on the footwork attribute. Let me know if I'm way of here (from the intent of your post)

Did I say right trigger? I meant right stick. I'll go back and fix it when I have a few minutes.

If you're facing center, flick left to face the middle left zone. The QB resets his feet oriented around 40 degrees left and gains time-on-target with receivers in that zone.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Operation Sports mobile app

[Brownsfans25]

Is cpu vs cpu back in Madden 18 can someone ask please

[extremeskins04]

Quote: Originally Posted by Brownsfans25

Is cpu vs cpu back in Madden 18 can someone ask please

You're asking this in multiple threads now. I asked them in the Twitter but they haven't responded yet. Relax bud.

[ForUntoOblivionSoar∞]

This thread is surely going to be flooded with people who think they are sim but are not. They will use the old quote "as soon as you put a controller in the hand it's no longer sim" which is total bullocks. Just thought I'd point that out. To those people, I would like to say, based on adembrokis post, this thread is not about psuedosim Madden where a tight end breaks the receiving record and teams play the same coverage all game.

Sim play is not what you think it is. Any Madden sim mode should get rid of crap like throwing slants after the wr has crossed the entire field, or calling a screen pass and throwing it to the wr running an out because the rb is covered, or qbs who run out of the pocket every play or drop 15 yards down the field. As adembroski pointed out, accuracy should take a hit if the pass isn't thrown in the proper window.

So, just putting it out there by what the actual sim crowd means by sim. You are NOT sim. You are not arcade cheese either, but unless you support gameplay mechanics that limit the effectiveness of unrealistic things, no, sorry, you aren't sim. You would do better in competitive mode.

[extremeskins04]

Quote: Originally Posted by ForUntoOblivionSoar∞

This thread is surely going to be flooded with people who think they are sim but are not. They will use the old quote "as soon as you put a controller in the hand it's no longer sim" which is total bullocks. Just thought I'd point that out. To those people, I would like to say, based on adembrokis post, this thread is not about psuedosim Madden where a tight end breaks the receiving record and teams play the same coverage all game. Sim play is not what you think it is. Any Madden sim mode should get rid of crap like throwing slants after the wr has crossed the entire field, or calling a screen pass and throwing it to the wr running an out because the rb is covered, or qbs who run out of the pocket every play or drop 15 yards down the field. As adembroski pointed out, accuracy should take a hit if the pass isn't thrown in the proper window. So, just putting it out there by what the actual sim crowd means by sim. You are NOT sim. You are not arcade cheese either, but unless you support gameplay mechanics that limit the effectiveness of unrealistic things, no, sorry, you aren't sim. You would do better in competitive mode.

Not sure where this response came from. You're going to tell people they aren't sim? I mean seriously.

But I'll just say that I regard sim as the closest you can get the real NFL from the offseason, preseason, regular season to the post season. Stats, trades, FA, Scouting, Draft, the amount of plays per game that are ran, everything. I could list 100 things. I mean heck I still have this dream of EA adding in some kind of attribute or trait to determine whether players get in "off the field trouble" where they get fines and suspensions, etc.

Just my opinion of course.