Legacy issues vs ratings issues

[deu22ces]

Wanted to put in some thoughts after reading the "Madden NFL 18 Community Requests Addressed" thread and EA blog. I'm very appreciative that they finally took assertive steps to address 'legacy' issues.

However, there is one aspect that raises my eyebrows and it's why i started a separate thread. This aspect is that EA seems to want to constantly tinker with tuning (which we know can 'break' other things) when, to me, the answer to many issues are right under their nose...in the ratings. My reasoning is simple: EA claims that ratings drive the game play/animations engine and 'dice rolls'. Doesn't it make better sense to start solving a game play or animation problem by looking at what drives it in the first place? And it's much simpler than tinkering with tuning and less 'moving parts' to go wrong.

I'll give a couple examples below of what i mean. And since I believe in being solution oriented, I'll give my take to 'fix' them. Maybe others can chime in with issues we can solve with EA fixing their ratings.

First example, the issue in the blog that brought this to mind to start the thread: low speed players catching high speed players - they tuned the engine instead of looking at their own ratings. The reason defensive linemen can catch RB's and WR's is because their PUR ratings are so stinking high compared to their SPD ratings. A NT running down a RB from 20 yds away is such an eye sore to see, but it's b/c they have an artificial 'boost' that overrides the SPD rating.

Couple player examples (was gonna use '17 ratings but now we have the '18 ratings spreadsheet): Damon Harrison, 54 SPD/ 92 PUR; Danny Shelton 51 SPD/ 87 PUR...do you think maybe this is why a NT runs down a much faster ball carrier? They have almost a 40 point 'boost' when the animation to 'pursue' after a player kicks in.

Both players are great run stoppers, but inside the box. Neither is ever going to chase down a ball carrier from 10 yds behind in a straight run. And their PUR rating should reflect that. Now, where both players should lead the league in is BSH rating. They're interior disruptors, not sideline-to-sideline pursuers. They ran the 40 in 5.54 and 5.64 for crying out loud. They have no business catching anyone from behind.

The fix: I use players' 20yd split times for PUR rating. What this does is give an objective value as to how fast the player will make up ground in 'pursuit', starting after changing/pausing direction. So, in the example above, Harrison timed a 3.14 20 split, Shelton timed a 3.21. Their respective PUR ratings would be 59 and 55 in my scale I use. **interesting to note I saw that EA lowered BSH ratings on DT this year...hope there was thoughtful logic behind that.

Another example from last year: QB fumbles. EA 'tuned' the engine on this a couple times. Well, if you look at QB fumble ratings, the answer is (was) right there. The avg NFL QB has a fumble rate of 11% (sacks + rush att/total fumbles). That would (should) be a 89 CAR Avg rating. The Avg M17 QB CAR rating? A 63!

Don't you think that a 26 point difference in avg QB CAR rating might play a role in inflated fumble %'s??

Couple of the most egregious player examples:
A.Luck - M17 CAR rating 58, career fumble %? 9% (should be a 91 rating)
B.Gabbert - M17 CAR rating 50!, career fumble %? 10%. Why EA? B/c you think he just generally sucks? a 50 CAR for a guy that should be a 90?
Both guys are very good runners IRL, but why would you even attempt to in the game when they'll fumble 40 times out of 100??

The fix: so simple, they keep stats for this. EA just has to effectively use them. What's worse, is CAR rating doesn't even factor into OVR for QB's so there's no excuse not to have this right.

There are many more to discuss but this intro may be 'long-winded' already. Would be nice to get EA to rectify on their end since they have the 'master copy' and i'm sure much better/faster editing abilities. If you guys think this concept has merit, I'll continue/edit. If I'm just blowing hot air, then I'll leave it be.

[michapop9]

Youre spot on for Madden 17 prior. Im holding my breath for 18, doesnt look like the ratings have changed though

[oneamongthefence]

Awesome post with really good points. I think the issue is that ratings are a mystery as to how they fit together and influence each other. Why would pursuit affect speed and acceleration? It doesn't make sense.

Sent from my LGAS992 using Operation Sports mobile app

[deu22ces]

Quote: Originally Posted by michapop9

Youre spot on for Madden 17 prior. Im holding my breath for 18, doesnt look like the ratings have changed though

No, they haven't in the specific areas I referenced as examples. Haven't had the time to pour over every rating category yet. But the avg QB CAR rating actually went down (slightly) to 62, and the DT PUR ratings are still widely higher than their SPD ratings. In fact, the avg SPD for all DT is 69 but the avg PUR is 78.

EA claims they 'fixed' the PUR problem with 'fatigue' tuning. But this worries me b/c we already had issues with the fatigue system. Maybe it worked, but maybe not and did it affect other areas or create bugs?

[roadman]

I don't pretend to know the magic formulas and I'm not sure I want to. lol

Maybe we can get Khaliib to respond to this, too.

[deu22ces]

Quote: Originally Posted by oneamongthefence

Awesome post with really good points. I think the issue is that ratings are a mystery as to how they fit together and influence each other. Why would pursuit affect speed and acceleration? It doesn't make sense. Sent from my LGAS992 using Operation Sports mobile app

I agree. But I took EA's own definition of PUR: "ability to catch up to a runner; unblocked or shed"

That's why I would like PUR tied to objective data, like the 20 split. Fluffing a players' rating so unrealistically high to account for OVR ratings throws off the game play and 'dice rolls' that trigger animations and outcomes.

[OhMrHanky]

Quote: Originally Posted by oneamongthefence

Awesome post with really good points. I think the issue is that ratings are a mystery as to how they fit together and influence each other. Why would pursuit affect speed and acceleration? It doesn't make sense. Sent from my LGAS992 using Operation Sports mobile app

This amazed me a year or 2 ago on another thread where Rex mentioned how PUR was responsible for this issue. And, my immediate take was 'why PUR affect SPD AT ALL??!!' In my mind, PUR would/should be an attribute that affects what angle u take to get to the ball carrier or how easily u r juked or something. SPD would never have factored into my creation of such a trait.

Now, I sort of understand why it does on their end. In terms of video game programming, u have to fudge some things sometimes to get appropriate outcomes. And, u could argue that for 95% of the gameplay, this isn't an issue. And, overall, your high PUR MLB makes tackles and you're happy. But, then u have the other 5% of plays where your speedy WR is caught from behind by a slower player.

Now, I think the OP may be oversimplifying some things. No offense at all, btw, but I think you're almost saying that a 54 SPD NT with 92 SPD will run with 92 SPD when in pursuit? This isn't the case, I don't think. It may bump him in certain circumstances with a quick boost if near the ball carrier, maybe. But, if the ball carrier is 10+ yards away, the NT isn't going to run with 92 SPD to catch him, imo.

But, I'm def in agreement that whatever PUR is doing to SPD should be completely regulated or removed. And, hopefully Rex and team have now done this.

In regards to the PUR difference in that NT case, u need to realize that PUR is probably also used in other calculations. As I mentioned, I would've thought it was a pursuit angle thing, and I'm guessing it also is. But, somewhere, it also had a SPD effect. And, in fact, it's possible it's not a true 'SPD effect' or 'SPD boost,' it's doing something with the animations that are 'false' and somehow override SPD or something.

So, it should still be ok for a NT to have 54 SPD and 92 PUR, and hopefully madden has truly fixed this issue, in general, while keeping the other important reasons for having a PUR rating in the first place.


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[ojai4keith]

In playing Madden 17 to cut down on too many Qb fumbles I edited Qbs Ball Caring rating up into 90s got realtic fumble results.