agree or disagree?...**long read**

[Graphik]

Quote: Originally Posted by quietcool72

I don’t know, I enjoy the VC football games as much as anyone, but I’m reminded why I don’t play it much anymore every time I start a franchise… or play against a scrambling QB online, or get perturbed at how easy it is to pass the ball online. (Why run when you can pass so easily?). So it really seems like six of one and half a dozen of the other when it comes to VC versus EA. Granted, I always seem to like VC’s graphics better, but for many of us it comes down to which bugs annoy us more individually between the two companies. “Innovation” is a buzz word often associated to an intangible that a 2K fan uses to justify why their game is better than EA’s, but both companies have PROFOUND in-game weaknesses. Admittedly, VC dresses theirs up a bit better with presentation- but they have their problems- some of which have also not been fixed year to year. (Clipping bug comes to mind.) And Madden has its plethora of problems just the same. Different games, different problems. What annoys one more? Gimme routes or no gang tackles? Braindead offensive tackles or the cone? Broken spy or broken shade calls? Clipping stat bugs or sacks subtracting pass yard bugs? Charged-up stiff arms or slow-to-respond stiff arms? …so much of it comes down to the individual player. I couldn’t definitively say which game is the end-all-be-all, because both VC and EA need to give their playtesters a swift kick in the nether regions. The difference now is that one of the games has been “martyred” by the NFL, so anything short of the Holy Grail of football games on Nov. 22nd will meet with anger, hostility, people attacking Madden fansites, people encouraging boycotts, fear, loathing, and general discontent on the parts of some hardcore players. EA is competing against the ghost of a future 2K product that many of its fans optimistically assume would have been “perfect” or close to it -simply because of hope and the fog of the “great unknown” of “what could have been.” (Yet, if the improvements between NHL 2K5 to 2K6, and NBA 2K5 to 2K6 on current gen were any indication… perhaps that conjecture is also misplaced? We’ll never know.) Now- throw in a mere 3 months with the 360 dev kit, mix in some severe discontent because of the above issues…. and bingo, you have what we have here in these forums. I agree with SM27 on a few things, but he also misses some serious points. EA had NO CHOICE but to be the high bidder in the NFL bid war. To not secure that license would have been akin to corporate suicide. And so what? The NFL sold it as an exclusive and EA outbid everyone else. Welcome to free markets- whether we like the outcome or not. I myself wasn’t a big fan of it either, nor were most gamers- but it is what it is. He also is very mistaken about anti-trusts as they relate to license agreements. (Does Visa have the right to sue MasterCard for outbidding them to be the “Official Card of the NFL” and call it a monopoly? Answer: no. Licensors have the right to sell the branding of their intellectual property as they see fit.) He also tends to overestimate Madden’s importance in the realm of world events, politics, Armageddon, world-peace, and judgment day. (I’d love to be on the listening line when he calls 60 minutes. – “Sure Steve, we’ll feature that story along with our cover story on the earthquake in the Kashmir, the potential bird-flu pandemic and the effects of Katrina.”) But he is right in that Madden needs to improve and listen to the fans, and Tiburon should really step it up- and feel the urge to do so. But, realistically- with all the factors going into what looks like rushed first-gen 360 games across the board, we are gonna get a visually enhanced port with some new presentation. The question then becomes to us individually “do I buy it, or not?” It’s that simple. The sun will rise and set the same as normal regardless of our own personal decisions. But you wouldn’t know that to read some of the posts ‘round these parts. Some will wait till Madden 2007, some won't. That's their thing. Strangely enough- there’s also a big contingent of people who want NO changes to the Madden series because they want to win every game without having to learn something new. Bill Simmons on ESPN wrote an article after playing Madden claiming that Madden was ruined because of the vision cone because he couldn’t pass as easily as before. Many other reviewers hammered EA for the vision cone as well? So the flip side of all of this is many people seem to want the “Same old” Madden with next gen graphics. I personally can’t relate to these people either- but to each his own. It all comes down to: ”To buy, or not buy, that is the question.” – but it does little good to try to preach to people and sway them to any side. All it does is tick people off. Rent it and/or read a review first, then make your own decision.

I actually agree with your post...except one thing. To buy or not to buy is the question. Its not the question, because there has'nt really been enough info to formulate that thought. I'm sure everybody in this forum wants a next-gen football game. Its just that most ppl wanna make sure that that football game is the best that it possibly can be. Some ppl seem fine with what they've seen thusfar, others dont. Thats not really a crime is it?

[quietcool72]

Quote: Originally Posted by Graphik

I actually agree with your post...except one thing. To buy or not to buy is the question. Its not the question, because there has'nt really been enough info to formulate that thought. I'm sure everybody in this forum wants a next-gen football game. Its just that most ppl wanna make sure that that football game is the best that it possibly can be. Some ppl seem fine with what they've seen thusfar, others dont. Thats not really a crime is it?

Graphik,
You are correct: I think indirectly we all benefit from people expressing their thoughts on how early shots of the title don't measure up from what we've seen... because that reaction is guaged by EA and Tiburon and may push them.

But it can go overboard. When people come to the Madden forums and try to "objectively" prove that 2K's game was all-that, and Madden has always stunk- and try to push this view on people who generally like the Madden series for whatever reason. Or they come here and say that EA is incapable of every making a good football game and if you don't agree you are braindead- or something equally polarized... They aren't going to "win", or change people's minds- thought they try, and try. You may not be one of these people (and by your posts you don't appear to be)- but there's a huge contingent of people who will hate Madden no matter what if it doesn't do all the things NFL 2K5 did, and conversely, there's also a huge demographic that WOULD hate Madden if it did do everything 2K5 did.

If they don't do what 2K did- "they s*ck and 2K was better."

If they do what 2K did and has those features- "they s*ck and they ripped it off."

So what happens is people who may perhaps be hopeful about the new Madden game won't even want to post in the Madden forums anymore- or come here to read anything- because of the majority of those here who post merely because "they are mad as h*ll and not going to take it anymore!". And these people cannot understand the average Madden fan who maybe isn't as hardcore or as upset about certain things.

So what we then have is a Madden forums filled with people with an anti-Madden agenda- or close to it. (Because, lets face it- the Madden fans who do like it don't want to come here and get all worked up about "what they should think.")

So I think we all need to keep that in perspective. We think the majority of us are angry about Madden- but that's a guess at best- because the average Madden fan left these and other forums months ago when they saw how the Madden forums accross the country were invaded by jilted 2K fans and people who think Madden needs to be more hardcore.

I just don't know how representative our demographic is anymore. The average Madden player I talk to generally isn't all that mad. There's also people out there like ESPN's Bill Simmons who wants a more "softcore" game that can be picked up and played like old Tecmo Super Bowl.

So there's no definitive answers- other than that the hardcore palyers- like you and I are, are the squeakiest wheels... but how much of a football video game buying demographic do we represent?

Hard to say.

Hopefully, 2K is reacting to this and making an alternative un-licensed football game- and lets hope they gear it especially to the hardcore fans- for our own sakes and theirs.

Otherwise, we'd probably be dissappointed with their product too.

[cheddabob7502]

Quote: Originally Posted by quietcool72

Graphik, You are correct: I think indirectly we all benefit from people expressing their thoughts on how early shots of the title don't measure up from what we've seen... because that reaction is guaged by EA and Tiburon and may push them. But it can go overboard. When people come to the Madden forums and try to "objectively" prove that 2K's game was all-that, and Madden has always stunk- and try to push this view on people who generally like the Madden series for whatever reason. Or they come here and say that EA is incapable of every making a good football game and if you don't agree you are braindead- or something equally polarized... They aren't going to "win", or change people's minds- thought they try, and try. You may not be one of these people (and by your posts you don't appear to be)- but there's a huge contingent of people who will hate Madden no matter what if it doesn't do all the things NFL 2K5 did, and conversely, there's also a huge demographic that WOULD hate Madden if it did do everything 2K5 did. If they don't do what 2K did- "they s*ck and 2K was better." If they do what 2K did and has those features- "they s*ck and they ripped it off." So what happens is people who may perhaps be hopeful about the new Madden game won't even want to post in the Madden forums anymore- or come here to read anything- because of the majority of those here who post merely because "they are mad as h*ll and not going to take it anymore!". And these people cannot understand the average Madden fan who maybe isn't as hardcore or as upset about certain things. So what we then have is a Madden forums filled with people with an anti-Madden agenda- or close to it. (Because, lets face it- the Madden fans who do like it don't want to come here and get all worked up about "what they should think.") So I think we all need to keep that in perspective. We think the majority of us are angry about Madden- but that's a guess at best- because the average Madden fan left these and other forums months ago when they saw how the Madden forums accross the country were invaded by jilted 2K fans and people who think Madden needs to be more hardcore. I just don't know how representative our demographic is anymore. The average Madden player I talk to generally isn't all that mad. There's also people out there like ESPN's Bill Simmons who wants a more "softcore" game that can be picked up and played like old Tecmo Super Bowl. So there's no definitive answers- other than that the hardcore palyers- like you and I are, are the squeakiest wheels... but how much of a football video game buying demographic do we represent? Hard to say. Hopefully, 2K is reacting to this and making an alternative un-licensed football game- and lets hope they gear it especially to the hardcore fans- for our own sakes and theirs. Otherwise, we'd probably be dissappointed with their product too.

well either way football games are never going to be the same anymore b/c of no competition. right now we can see what competiton can do for a company and how it makes companies work harder and push the envelope to satisfy gamers of all kinds. my point is i agree with you, you seem like the way i play in an arguement like this Nuetral, b/c both companies had their flaws and every year it seemed 2k had this and madden didn't and visce versa, but now we only will be able to compare an old 2k5 to any recent madden. For 2k series to make a comeback would be what i want b/c i want someone to make tiburon get serious about their gaming, like the way they are trying to get the best b-ball game, honestly live and 2k6 might be the best next-gen sport games to date b/c on how damn good both games look, but thats just my 2 cents

[BritPitbull]

Quote: Originally Posted by Mikejones1964

too long to read...can ya summarize?...But I do smell a 2k5 fanboy-like flavor to the post...Disagree

Funniest post I ever read, thanks for the laugh.

SM has done more for Madden players than any guy on any forum that is out there. It has obviously escaped you that anyone prepared to go to the trouble to write such a long piece on the game must surely care about it. You on the other hand couldn't even be bothered to read it. The irony is that it's the people who cannot tolerate any criticism of Madden that are actually the fanboys.

Breathtaking ignorance!

[dkgojackets]

Quote: Originally Posted by BritPitbull

Funniest post I ever read, thanks for the laugh. SM has done more for Madden players than any guy on any forum that is out there. It has obviously escaped you that anyone prepared to go to the trouble to write such a long piece on the game must surely care about it. You on the other hand couldn't even be bothered to read it. The irony is that it's the people who cannot tolerate any criticism of Madden that are actually the fanboys. Breathtaking ignorance!

breathtakingly worthless bump

[JayBee74]

I disagree. The games plays a lot different then previous Maddens. Different game.