mario williams

[#85_on_a_mission]

Did any scouts know who mario williams after the combine...................Not really...simply said mario is a workout wonder

[puja21]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rau71

Mario Williams isn't a great DE. He is a workout wonder. He put up great combine numbers

Exactly. In terms of success I predict somewhere in between combine phenoms Mike Mamula (Philly DL) and JD Williams (Buffalo DB)

A lot of people don't remember JD (James) Williams. He walked-on at Fresno St as a 5'5 130lb track scholarship athlete, then parlayed his amazing workouts into becoming the 16th overall selection in 1990.

The pick isn't a big story as he was just a middle first-rounder. And it's not like the Bills were going to draft unheralded Emmitt Smith or even Rodney Hampton with Thurman Thomas already in the backfield. Still, the hype surrounding JD Williams was unbelievable. He could absolutely fly, his vertical leap was spectacular and he had that impressive snap with his hips that nearly all great CBs possess.

He could not, however, play football. That is not to say he didn't understand football. JD Williams received high marks from coaches and scouts as being a quick study, and today he coaches the Cal secondary. But that just did not translate into him being a good player.

Williams started out okay, as an all-rookie team member, and did some good work on special teams- including blocking a punt and returning a block for a TD. However, he was retired by 1996. It was one of the few times during that period that the Bills' scouts really failed to deliver.

Mario Williams simply does not dominate the line of scrimmage like a top pick at DE should. He played on a defense that gave up 27 points to Wake Forest (and a 100 yard game for Chris Barclay). He doesn't always demand game-plan adjustments and constant double teams like a Bruce Smith or even Dwight Freeney and Julius Peppers.

Remember Andre Wadsworth....

[Leahmic223]

Quote: Originally Posted by puja21

Exactly. In terms of success I predict somewhere in between combine phenoms Mike Mamula (Philly DL) and JD Williams (Buffalo DB) A lot of people don't remember JD (James) Williams. He walked-on at Fresno St as a 5'5 130lb track scholarship athlete, then parlayed his amazing workouts into becoming the 16th overall selection in 1990. The pick isn't a big story as he was just a middle first-rounder. And it's not like the Bills were going to draft unheralded Emmitt Smith or even Rodney Hampton with Thurman Thomas already in the backfield. Still, the hype surrounding JD Williams was unbelievable. He could absolutely fly, his vertical leap was spectacular and he had that impressive snap with his hips that nearly all great CBs possess. He could not, however, play football. That is not to say he didn't understand football. JD Williams received high marks from coaches and scouts as being a quick study, and today he coaches the Cal secondary. But that just did not translate into him being a good player. Williams started out okay, as an all-rookie team member, and did some good work on special teams- including blocking a punt and returning a block for a TD. However, he was retired by 1996. It was one of the few times during that period that the Bills' scouts really failed to deliver. Mario Williams simply does not dominate the line of scrimmage like a top pick at DE should. He played on a defense that gave up 27 points to Wake Forest (and a 100 yard game for Chris Barclay). He doesn't always demand game-plan adjustments and constant double teams like a Bruce Smith or even Dwight Freeney and Julius Peppers. Remember Andre Wadsworth....

Thanks for proving our points man.

And it's not like the Bills were going to draft unheralded Emmitt Smith or even Rodney Hampton with Thurman Thomas already in the backfield.

Really, the draft is a crap shoot. When the Blazers decided to take Bowie over Jordan, they thought he would be a better player for them. Sure you can look back and say "That was a dumb pick." but in reality, Jordan was a Freshmen, one year in college and they probably thought. "Eh, one good year in college proves nothing.

When guys like Gilbert Arenas gets passed up until the 2nd round, and guys like Brady get taken in the 6th, does it not prove that the Draft is a crap shoot?

For how much we know, Reggie Bush could have 2 good years, and then start to decline.

And the way the Texans see it, a great RB doesn't make you into a winning team, get me here, it helps but it doesn't mean squat if your defense is lacking and your O-Line is lacking.

So the Texans had NO reason to get Bush. Think about it, Lions had Barry Sander who is a great RB, but it doesn't mean squat if your not winning. Holmes great RB, Tomlinson great RB. The trend here is even with the best of the best, it doesn't secure wins for you, it helps but it means nothing if you can't block for the guy and if your defense can't stop the other team from scoring. A good RB is a pretty common thing nowadays, and they have short careers. The Way the Texans see it, Mario has the potential to be a HOF DE, and Kubiak beleives that a good blocking scheme can turn a average RB into a good RB. And the thing is PLAYERS ARE DRAFTED ON THEIR POTENTIAL, so Texans decided on a potentially great DE, over a pontentially great RB. And you have got to be kidding me if you are going to say no other teams had Mario rated high, because Texans COULD NOT trade down because Mario would have been gone past 3rd pick. No other team felt they needed Bush that bad...ODDLY just like the Texans to trade up. The media and ESPN has just put it into everyone head that it is the dumbest pick in history. The same ESPN I could have swore that said USE was going to beat the Longhorns. We will have to wait and see what happens. Also, I will wait a full year to judge Bush. He had a good game, against the Brown, but a good game nonetheless.

It is like the Pistons, picked Darko over Carmelo. They did not really need Carmelo, people say "Man, if they had Carmelo they would have been cold." not really, Not when your starting 5 is Billups,Rip,Prince,Sheed, and Ben. Melo would be sitting on the bench and probably would have had a different career.

Like I said, just because its the popular choice, doesn't mean it is the right choice.

[TurboTitan]

I know it was only Mario's first game on Sunday....and we really cant take too much away from that as he is still learning tons, but he sure did look unimpressive. BUT, the O for the opponents could have game planned to take him out of the equation as well.

[puja21]

I agree with your assessment on why the decision was made, but I never said Williams wasn't rated high by plenty of other teams. I never even implied that. Regardless of who liked him though, my point was that I think he has been overrated from his combine success & will not develop into an elite pass rusher. Period. I wasn't trying to gauge the value of a skilled player against the OL & DL or to say that Kubiak's system isn't a fantastic scheme for runners.

Obviously, I agree players are drafted on potential. The entire draft is a projection, a crapshoot, & is certainly not based on performance. No one would argue against that. Otherwise, back-to-back 2000 yd rusher Troy Davis from Iowa State would have been the top RB 10 years back instead of Ricky. I do not think Williams will be an impact player like Reggie Bush. This has zero connection to ESPN "putting it in my head," other than the connection that I probably watched some of each guy via footage shot by their cameras. I base my assessments on my own research. I worked in an ACC athletic dept from 03 to 05 & watched more than enough State games to form what I think to be an educated opinion on him. I am definitely NOT "following" one of many lame hypes generated by the ESPN juggernaut (see Terrell Owens, the story of the minute). The NFL is their bread and butter and ESPN just salivates when the draft comes around so they can get the hype going all summer.

Actually, I think Donte Whitner will become an absolute hammer at SS for Buffalo, and this was probably the most popular pick to rag on in the first round (I don't like the McCargo pick, though, considering their weaknesses on OL and the later edition of Kyle Williams bolstering the needs there.)

Anyways, IMO, Mario Williams is just not a great football player. Furthermore, I don't have confidence in Kubiak and the Texans staff to develop him into a great football player. Kubiak himself is an offensive specialist. His strengths are zone-blocking, yes. And, yes, Denver has turned plenty of RBs into great successes using this scheme. I still don't see that as a reason to pass on a special player like Reggie Bush. It doesn't devalue him that Kubiak can successfully run the ball with another guy in there and produce yards. Bush is just flatout a playmaker IMO who I think will bust off long runs, catches & returns. He will create special things that cannot be replicated or substituted by strategy.

Also, I think Bush will have enough impact in the passing game so that, just like a trusty tight-end, he can develop into a QB's safety valve at times. David Carr needs this probably 2nd only to a great weakside tackle. Regarding the injury to DD, obviously hindsight is 20-20 from the Texans' perspective. But I have been personally wary of Davis' durability for 3 straight fantasy years, so it's not like his situation came out of left field for them. Plus, the chronic nature of what happened to him last year, AND the fact that he is a RB should have only encouraged them to plan for the longterm (Or just call Bush insurance if you think he too will breakdown like DD). You said yourself, the shelf-life of a RB is limited. What better way to extend it then to limit carries and split the load like Deuce & Reggie are doing now?

The Lions are a terrible counter example. Barry's selection did NOT hurt them in anyway whatsoever. That is a ridiculous notion to even imply. If your point was that RBs don't win you games, I agree. But trade Barry straight up for Reggie White, Deacon Jones, or Bruce Smith and they are not suddenly winners. Detroit flubbed year in & year out, striking out again & again both in the draft & in free agency when making an effort to surround Sanders with quality linemen and able-minded quarterbacks (Scott Mitchell... ugh). And if you knew anything at all about Barry Sanders, you would NEVER suggest that a good offensive line was something he even wanted, forget needed. Even at OSU, Barry ran hog wild wherever he wanted. He broke plays off the book because it is his unique running style, not because he was running for his life like Carr has been for 3 years. Barry would've still led the NFL in career times tackled for loss if he had five Anthony Munoz's in front of him.

Say Detroit passed on Barry.... Honestly, do you think would they have been any better if they took yet ANOTHER ham & egger player as opposed to Sanders that year? What makes you think during that one particular draft they would've finally gotten it right? Plenty of teams ranked Burt Grossman as a top DLman that year... maybe the Lion's scouting dept would even have picked him ahead of the only other likely stud, Derrick Thomas. Also, offensive linemen were considered thin that year's 1st round (they later vindicated this on the field), so Detroit would've been even more likely to linger in (or rather begin their) futility. I know every pick is a gamble but, I am trying to parallel that while they are unique situations, pre-draft Sanders and Bush are as close to a sure thing as you can get. They have uncanny athletic abilities AND they are tremendous football players. Not to mention as premier college weapons they generate more than W's of course (financial aspects).

If you want to rip the Lions, Wayne Fontes was just as much a problem as were the players around Sanders. If you go back & look at the papers or the schedules even, you can see it happen historically. The Lions would consistently underachieve, until the press called for Wayne's head midseason, then they would go on this ridiculous win streak and just miss the playoffs. Or just sneak in only to get blown out. Happened more than a couple times. Fontes should've been a more successful motivator for the entire 17 weeks, or he should've been gone sooner.

Same for San Diego. Their problem isn't 11 on 11 talent, it's coaching. Marty Schottenheimer is a consistent choker down the stretch, esp in the playoffs (if he can suck it up to even get that far). Think of the loss to Pittsburgh last year. F'ing Marty-Ball. God, calling a delay on the 2 pt conversion, so LT gets absolutely stuffed? That is probably top-5 worst short yardage playcalling I've seen, right after Wake Forest's Jim Grobe calling a draw-play on 4th and short vs Purdue in 03. It was the same story with the 05-06 Charger losses to Miami, and at Denver and Philadelphia. There was just some awful play-calling in those games.

LT has turned that team into a contender virtually every Sunday. No, I would never say singlehandedly, but he is as valuable if not more valuable than any other one player on that team. Even in '02, during the 8-8 season, they lost FOUR games in overtime. HALF of their losses coming down to that joke of an overtime format the NFL has in place (basically a coin toss). Schottenheimer has consistently proven he cannot get over the hump in close games and in big games. From Cleveland with the fumble, to the crummy protection he called that allowed Joe Cool to get knocked out by Bruce Smith in the '93 AFC championship, he is not the man I want running my team when it's a big time game.

I agree that RBs don't make teams into winners... obviously great TEAMS make great winners. Great teams have a few things in common. (Usually) a great coach. And regardless of position, (usually) one or two great players. The Patriots are the "team-first" group that everyone loved to talk about like old '72 No-Name Miami in recent years. They still had Brady & Belichick. If you look at last year's winners, they both had long-tenured, proven winners at head coach. Cowher had already won many big late-season games & several big playoff games, including the conference championship. No need to discuss Holmgren. Maybe Kubiak becomes that caliber head coach, balancing motivation and strategy. Maybe not. I would argue that Bush would only have help him though. Having a elite RB does not guarantee you victory, but it is definitely more valuable than having Mario Williams. I have seen enough of him. In terms of players on the field, the trenches are probably the strongest indicator of the W-L column. However, in this case I still think the pick was a mistake. I don't see Wiliams as the bluechipper that I project Bush to be.

[Leahmic223]

Wait, I am not talking about Lions drafting Sanders. I was clearly stating that a great RB doesn't make a team great. With that said, it is clear that the Texans thought how 2/4 of the league thought. That Mario is a once in a generation type of player. Which remains to be seen, but if guys are drafted on their potential, what is so boneheaded and stupid for Texans drafting Mario?

It wasn't on impulse, they know what Reggie is capable of, they just liked what they saw in Mario more.

I think the Texans were thinking like this...

*Well, if MArio is a Great DE, he will play for the next 10 years, by that time, Reggie's Career will be near its end and Mario can still play a bit after that. So he has a longer shelf life, and by that time, we can find a great RB, I mean they come out of the draft every year.*

Were they right, I mean Peterson looks good. And even this year, Deangelo and Maroney might have a better year than Bush. Never mind the LenDale who could be good. Rewind a year back and think about Cadillac and Ronnie Brown. So really, every year a good RB is produced. It isn't every year you find a athlethic freak like Mario at DE. Their thing is, he can learn the game better and work on his technique and if he gets that down then he could be great.

Yes Mario may be a project, but so is Young. You have to take risk to reap great rewards. Bush was the safe pick, but there may be a bigger reward for the Mario pick.

You mak good points though, I am just trying to silence all these people that watch ESPN and go "OMG DUMBEST PICK EVAR!" when Mario was the #2 pick and would be #1 regardless if Bush wasn't in the draft.

[puja21]

Bowie over Jordan? Probably had as much questioning coverage as this Bush-Williams situation (right or wrong). That situation just had bust written all over it from the beginning. Portland safest bet was Hakeem. There were 2 very special players in that draft and plenty of people knew it. Size is often more valuable and generally more lasting than guards, so no one faults Houston today.... and no one would even mention that draft if Bowie was 3rd. Passing specifically on Jordan wasn't the problem.

Regarding, Darko, I am an ACC guy. Yes, chemistry is always a question, but if you wanna talk about getting value in terms of their realistic needs, then the obvious pick for Detroit should have been Chris Bosh. Forget all of them though: Melo, Wade, Bosh, JHo, Heinrich, Ridnour... any one of them would have been better in my eyes from the moment I saw this interview:

Darko: "I believe in myself but with all the hype surrounding LeBron James and the fact that he lives in the US. I just don’t think that will happen. I would like to see LeBron play against the competition I face."

Interviewer (shrewdly several questions later): "Who is the toughest player you have faced?"Darko: "Pat Burke, of the Orlando Magic"

It was then that I knew Darko would not work out for Larry Brown and the Pistons. He may be a better player then Bowie, but forgetting Melo completely that pick was still a flatout mistake. Hell, Joe D would even tell you that.

[puja21]

Yeah, I agree. I hate when people join the ESPN hype.

I can definitely respect someone who argues for Mario. I just personally don't see it (time will tell if I am wrong)