Can someone tell me what is realistic in video game football

[adfletch71]

Just had a back and forth with one of the developers of EA, he said that EA view of realistic and ours are different. We want more "fun factor" then realisim. To me, dropping back 15 yards and throwing bullets 50 yards is unrealistic. Also the same way i watch the NFL on tv is what i like to see in the game. We need to have a serious discussion about EA vision and ours as a community. Yes they develop the game, but with our insight it will be almost perfect. Please Ian and phil along with the other developers, tell us what your idea of realisim is and please community tell them yours. We need to come together on this one and be in one accord.

[kardashian]

Madden 09 is a realistic video game, VERY realistic. I have it.. so trust me it is.

[MaxMan1000]

Can someone tell me what is realistic in video game football

I'm afraid that question is like the dilemma of psychology... it's easy to describe what makes a person crazy, but almost impossible to define normality.

I'll say the idea that a game can't be ultra realistic and still be fun is just not true. I also think the idea that the "casual fan" wouldn't be impressed is not true either. I'm a casual fan--I know I'm just one--but I know I'd be impressed

Hopefully, they rethink that mindset and realize that the sky won't fall if they actually try to mimic TV. They might actually make a product that goes down in history as something great, something none of the 3 games prior to 09 could ever be thought of.

[BrianFifaFan]

I know this was meant as more of a feedback tool for the developers to chime in, but I just wanted to add a few thoughts. I'm totally with your opinion about realism. The most satisfying games to me are the one that work hard to approach "sim." That doesn't mean not fun. Fifa is well on it's way from being up and down the pitch 10-0 wide open sprintfests to what seems to be a more considered passing and build-up approach. (like PES already was ) Being considered a GOTY canidate. NHL08 was a 7-time Sports Game of the Year winner. And will be even more realistic this year. Even the baseball games are making it harder to jack HR's and make it harder to have .750 with 68 HR stats. Why does it seem that the Tiburon team is so resistant to a more 3 yards and a cloud of dust, I'm only gonna complete 63% of my passes and actually end up having to punt about 5 times a game approach?

I believe that Ian and Phil are receptive to a more "sim" style, but only so much. It's about success. Madden-boys like Madden. And buy it religiously. So it's hard to fix what really can't be considered broken. But I agree that when seeing how MVP revolutionized/revived Baseball gaming, how Fifa's change is heralded and NHL is considered the pinnacle of hockey gaming, (no small feat as NHK2k was considered the best by far) that Tiburon won't take the leap of faith. All of these games have both financial and critical praise. The truth is that Madden's style of football is played out, last-gen. I can see how it has been tweaked to be the best Madden ever, but it stilll plays the same as 2000. The new camera is sweet, but the controls are still the same. How players move look the same, just better animations.

There isn't really anything that screams "new!" "next-gen!", heck Microsoft has been through 3 Operating Systems since Madden went PS1. And each fundimentally changed computing. Tiburon has to bring the game to a new level. And getting more realistic is key. New physics, movement and AI. And it should be done by a team that knows how to program a football game, but isn't just lloking to modify the classic "Madden" experience. But to redefine it. Techie geeks and gamers are suckers for early-adoption of the newest shiniest gadget, console or game. Sure you have those who view Madden as a old familiar pair of slippers, but they survived the Genesis to PS1 transition. They'll survive this. Why? Because they need the NFL fix. Be it sprites,2d 3d, Photo-realistic or holographic, they want that Giants, Eagles or Cowboys helmet with their favorite player in all his glory. He just has to be able to be controllable and give that vicarious rush. And now we're getting to the point where that rush can be closer to real than ever.

Before this is considered complint, it's anything but. It's encouragement to take a risk. I actually believe you guys can make a football game as good as anything 2k ever put out. Now as good a football game as Fifa or PES, we'll see.........Go sim, and fun. Call David Rutter or David Littman, they've got a great balance right now. Then you'll never hear the "roster update" cracks again. (or at least for 5 or so years.....)

[copecowboy]

Quote: Originally Posted by adfletch71

Just had a back and forth with one of the developers of EA, he said that EA view of realistic and ours are different. We want more "fun factor" then realisim. To me, dropping back 15 yards and throwing bullets 50 yards is unrealistic. Also the same way i watch the NFL on tv is what i like to see in the game. We need to have a serious discussion about EA vision and ours as a community. Yes they develop the game, but with our insight it will be almost perfect. Please Ian and phil along with the other developers, tell us what your idea of realisim is and please community tell them yours. We need to come together on this one and be in one accord.

You really don't want it to be too realistic, you wont get to much playing time.

[g2thecore]

Quote: Originally Posted by copecowboy

You really don't want it to be too realistic, you wont get to much playing time.

I really don't get your logic...but anyways....moving on.....

I agree with Brian. I think that EA needs to stop catering to the "Madden Nation" guys and just make a game that's fresh and makes you feel like you're actually playing on a "Next-gen" system. Let's be honest, minus the high polygons and high quality textures Madden next-gen has yet to live up to the name. We have nothing to brag about when comparing our games to the PS2 guys. The engine is played out, the mechanics are played out.....Like Brian said, take some risks....Change a few things...Like I said in my other thread, why is it that the DL moves have remained the same for the past 4 years. No new mechanics have been attempted...nothing. Same QB dropback animations, same throwing motions, same running animations, no true CB/WR interaction....I mean the list goes on..I know ppl make these complaints everyday...but I feel that the true problem is the devs refuse to innovate.

[LBzrule]

I disagree with them that their understanding of realism and ours is different. Sure we parse things out and fuss about things, but in the end we are talking about the same damn things they are talking about, namely, Player Behaviors and Physics/movements. Outside of that, they have most things right - formations and defensive alignments, realistic plays. Where we differ is in our understanding of what should be happening in terms of player behavior and player movement/physics within specific football contexts. Let's look at most of our critiques and complaints of NCAA as a reference.

1) Rocket Catching - this is something that falls under both player behavior and Physics/Movement. Where we disagree is on what, when and HOW this happens. But like them, most of us would agree that user catching should be a part of the game and should be made fun. How that is achieved and balanced with the defense is an issue.

Let's take another one.

2) Suction Blocking - this is another item that falls under the same two categories. There should never be such a thing PERIOD. What's the point of having ratings such as Run/Pass Block Footwork if all the guy has to do is get close to a defender and the block is guaranteed? Make everything in your game make SENSE.

3) QB Play - the whole issue about running backwards and delivering strikes also falls under the same two categories. We may disagree on HOW things should happen, but we are not outside of those two categories.

I could go on. I see no discrepancy in what we MEAN when we talk about realism - namely player behaviors and movement/physics. The discrepancy is in the smaller details, like which movements are realistic and often can and should be possible in certain situations and which ones are not. For example, a QB facing me the game player and not facing his WR's should not be able to hit his WR in stride for a completion, or a QB running to the right side of the field, should not be able to throw the ball accurately all the way back to the left side of the field with a 180 spinning animation without accuracy issues.

EA themselves even acknowledge as such when they come up with "solutions" like the Vision cone and the highlight stick. They know, like we know, that the QB play can be rather childish and unrealistic in terms of physics/movements in particular situations so they tried to address it with the cone but it was not a good move. And this year they are making the icons disappear as a stop gap.

In the end, to me, all we are dealing with is player behaviors and player physics/movements within specific contextual frames. And even EA agrees that certain things should not be happening in certain frames or else they would not be attempting to address them. So again, I don't know who you talked to, but I'd have to say that we are not in disagreement on what we mean by realism.

Where we are trying to establish agreement is where and how the realism gets played out in contextual frames. Contextual frames should have an impact on player behavior and player physics/movement. In certain areas of the game they do, in others they do not. Bring the context to bear upon those two categories in every situation, such as QB play, Oline vs Dline ect.

[thehitokiri]

Quote: Originally Posted by BrianFifaFan

I know this was meant as more of a feedback tool for the developers to chime in, but I just wanted to add a few thoughts. I'm totally with your opinion about realism. The most satisfying games to me are the one that work hard to approach "sim." That doesn't mean not fun. Fifa is well on it's way from being up and down the pitch 10-0 wide open sprintfests to what seems to be a more considered passing and build-up approach. (like PES already was ) Being considered a GOTY canidate. NHL08 was a 7-time Sports Game of the Year winner. And will be even more realistic this year. Even the baseball games are making it harder to jack HR's and make it harder to have .750 with 68 HR stats. Why does it seem that the Tiburon team is so resistant to a more 3 yards and a cloud of dust, I'm only gonna complete 63% of my passes and actually end up having to punt about 5 times a game approach? I believe that Ian and Phil are receptive to a more "sim" style, but only so much. It's about success. Madden-boys like Madden. And buy it religiously. So it's hard to fix what really can't be considered broken. But I agree that when seeing how MVP revolutionized/revived Baseball gaming, how Fifa's change is heralded and NHL is considered the pinnacle of hockey gaming, (no small feat as NHK2k was considered the best by far) that Tiburon won't take the leap of faith. All of these games have both financial and critical praise. The truth is that Madden's style of football is played out, last-gen. I can see how it has been tweaked to be the best Madden ever, but it stilll plays the same as 2000. The new camera is sweet, but the controls are still the same. How players move look the same, just better animations. There isn't really anything that screams "new!" "next-gen!", heck Microsoft has been through 3 Operating Systems since Madden went PS1. And each fundimentally changed computing. Tiburon has to bring the game to a new level. And getting more realistic is key. New physics, movement and AI. And it should be done by a team that knows how to program a football game, but isn't just lloking to modify the classic "Madden" experience. But to redefine it. Techie geeks and gamers are suckers for early-adoption of the newest shiniest gadget, console or game. Sure you have those who view Madden as a old familiar pair of slippers, but they survived the Genesis to PS1 transition. They'll survive this. Why? Because they need the NFL fix. Be it sprites,2d 3d, Photo-realistic or holographic, they want that Giants, Eagles or Cowboys helmet with their favorite player in all his glory. He just has to be able to be controllable and give that vicarious rush. And now we're getting to the point where that rush can be closer to real than ever. Before this is considered complint, it's anything but. It's encouragement to take a risk. I actually believe you guys can make a football game as good as anything 2k ever put out. Now as good a football game as Fifa or PES, we'll see.........Go sim, and fun. Call David Rutter or David Littman, they've got a great balance right now. Then you'll never hear the "roster update" cracks again. (or at least for 5 or so years.....)

BRAVO !!!