What is the consensus on the 3-4?

[reyes the roof]

Quote: Originally Posted by Jim Jones

It's totally ridiculous. The 3-4 is a joke in this game. Those sack totals the Steeler guy posted up there are the norm. I simmed a season and friggin DeMarcus Ware had 3 sacks, James Harrison had 7 and Shawn Merriman had 4.5 I'm doing an online franchise w/ the Cowboys and I'm just converting to a 4-3 and playing Ware at DE. It's pointless to have my best player be a complete non-factor.

If your simming a season, you don't know what kind of defensive plays the cpu is calling, they probably aren't blitzing the edge rushers as much as in a real NFL game. The problem with the 3-4 isn't the fact that the NT isn't getting double teamed, it's the fact that the front seven on a 3-4 and a 4-3 isn't as simple as breaking the positions into DTs, DEs, MLBs and OLBs. They need to have depth charts to reflect differences in schemes. An example would be a guy like Shawne Merriman who is listed as an OLB should suffer a big rating drop is I sign him to play OLB for my Bears. Of course all of this would be with the assumtion that all 4-3 defenses are 1 gap schemes and all 3-4 defenses are two gap schemes

[Jebus 786]

This whole issue seems to be part of line play being somewhat overlooked. The ability to match up a corner with a specific receiver is there, but choosing to double-team a d-lineman isn't, despite being a more common coaching decision.

It would be nice to have the choice whether or not to double Hampton and other 3-4 DTs, or adjust to it if he is blowing plays up (and really the same goes for 4-3 DT's - teams constantly double Haynesworth, etc.).

It seems that instead of this option we get these elite DT's dumbed down to a less effective level, so that people aren't constantly complaining about not being able to move the ball, and it breaks down defensive schemes.

[Steel_Tattooed]

Quote: Originally Posted by shttymcgee

Very rarely do the Steelers, or any other 30 team rush just 3. The OLB in the 30 front are the ones that are singled and they are the ones who normally come up with the sack. This whole idea about NT getting doubled comes from idiot announcers who don't know what they are talking about. Most pro offenses' protection schemes vs. 30 fronts involve sliding one or the other guards to the center with the center helping on the nose, but being responsible for the backer. The slide-side guard and tackle slide to the 4 technique and OLB. The back duals to the other side. Nose Guards ARE NOT exclusively doubled in the NFL.

Those "idiot announcers" don't dictate what I see with my own eyes. Go watch the AFC Championship Game and tell me that Hampton isn't getting double-teamed on almost half the plays he is in.

The Center is responsible for the NT, but generally is aided with the NT until the "blitzing" LB is known which is then picked up (hopefully).

In the Steeler's scheme for example, the MLB is simply the 4th rusher and is what causes the problems for the opposing Offensive Lines.

The "blitz" generally comes from the extraordinary OLB's in the Steelers scheme which force the Tackles or HB to pick up either Woodley or Harrison. The problem with the 3-4 is trying to figure out where the blitz is coming from. Generally rushing 5 for the Steelers in real life gets a decent rush on the QB from either the Mike or Mack LB or OLB, rarely from the DE.

However, with the NT being picked up in the A gap individually by the C in Madden it leaves the Mack or Mike to easily get stoned by a Guard and the OLB getting stoned by a Tackle or FB/HB. I have had 3 sacks in one game by my DL and only 2 from my OLB's. I am not arguing that I should have had more TOTAL, just that the numbers at best should been INVERTED.

The bigger problem comes when you are defending the run and people can run up the middle easily when your elite NT is pushed off the Line by the Center alone. Highly unrealistic and leaves your D at a loss when these power backs can easily get to the second level and create plays. It also creates huge problems when you have a team who has a Power RB and a decent or good pass catching FB. You have to pick your poison because you have to commit extra people to stop the run which leaves the flats or the area behind the ILB's wide open.

[shttymcgee]

Quote: Originally Posted by Steel_Tattooed

Those "idiot announcers" don't dictate what I see with my own eyes. Go watch the AFC Championship Game and tell me that Hampton isn't getting double-teamed on almost half the plays he is in. The Center is responsible for the NT, but generally is aided with the NT until the "blitzing" LB is known which is then picked up (hopefully). In the Steeler's scheme for example, the MLB is simply the 4th rusher and is what causes the problems for the opposing Offensive Lines. The "blitz" generally comes from the extraordinary OLB's in the Steelers scheme which force the Tackles or HB to pick up either Woodley or Harrison. The problem with the 3-4 is trying to figure out where the blitz is coming from. Generally rushing 5 for the Steelers in real life gets a decent rush on the QB from either the Mike or Mack LB or OLB, rarely from the DE. However, with the NT being picked up in the A gap individually by the C in Madden it leaves the Mack or Mike to easily get stoned by a Guard and the OLB getting stoned by a Tackle or FB/HB. I have had 3 sacks in one game by my DL and only 2 from my OLB's. I am not arguing that I should have had more TOTAL, just that the numbers at best should been INVERTED. The bigger problem comes when you are defending the run and people can run up the middle easily when your elite NT is pushed off the Line by the Center alone. Highly unrealistic and leaves your D at a loss when these power backs can easily get to the second level and create plays. It also creates huge problems when you have a team who has a Power RB and a decent or good pass catching FB. You have to pick your poison because you have to commit extra people to stop the run which leaves the flats or the area behind the ILB's wide open.

No. Unless you mean in only in Madden. Those BOB schemes with duals for the guards were almost put to rest about 10 years ago and were definitely put to rest after the Colts guards couldn't block anyone in the 2005 (i think) afc championship.

Agree about the run.

[imskykid]

Ok...I've actually been thinking about this issue for a while.

I don't know anything about game development and logic... but I think this would be a good start.

1). Separate Depth Charts for 4-3 and 3-4 teams. (This is just an example)

CB 5T NT 5T CB
DE/OLB MLB MLB DE/OLB

S S

5T (5-technique for lack of a better term), NT, and DE/OLB would all have their own specific rating qualifications. You want Glenn Dorsey to be your NT? Well his rating is going to take a hit because while he might play well as a DT in a 4-3, there are different attributes that make a 3-4 NT more effective.

The 5T for laziness sake (because EA wont want to spend the time anyway) their rating qualification could be the same as or close to DT ratings... but a different position would be nice because they have different responsibilites/attributes required to play the position.

Finally, what makes the 3-4 nightmares for QBs, the DE/OLB. Having a totally seperate rating for this position would eliminate the ability to plug any OLB in and be sucessful. Derrick Brooks is a HOFer but would not survive as an OLB in a 3-4. They need to have ratings similar to (but not exact) of DE. This way when you switch a low-70s Vernon Gholston to DE he doesnt go up to 90. But there should be a slight drop off when you switch a DE to DE/OLB because of coverage responsibilites.

Another thing this would improve is the Draft in Franchise Mode. The CPU Cowboys would not draft a DE who is 6'3" 255lbs and expect him to play the 5-Technique in their 3-4. Instead, players who have the DE/OLB position would default to whatever position best suits them for the scheme they are drafted into. Same would work with Free Agency when say Shawne Merriman isn't resigned. Instead of going to the Saints to play OLB, he would be switched to play DE because that is what their scheme dictates (much like how OLB Greg Ellis for the Cowboys is now DE Greg Ellis for the Raiders).

Simmed stats in Franchise are scewed because the same sim logic is applied to both 3-4 and 4-3 teams where DE's and DT's get the most sacks, when we all know that is FALSE! Creating all new positions and depth charts would allow for stats to be realistic and a good step in the right direction for gameplay.

Thoughts? (Sorry that was long)

[DorneyDave]

I play with the Cowboys in Franchise...and I have given up on the 3-4 and switched to a 4-3. Put Ware in at DE....he got 3 sacks in his first game in that position as opposed to 0 as an OLB through 5 games.


Plus, it will be fun drafting for the 4-3 now and rebuilding the front 8 around that scheme.

3-4 was just too annoying to play with.

[imskykid]

Quote: Originally Posted by imskykid

CB 5T NT 5T CB DE/OLB MLB MLB DE/OLB S S

Sorry... the spacing didn't work how I wanted, but hopefully you get the idea.