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Old 11-30-2009, 07:46 PM   #41
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Re: Madden needs even more streched ratings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tito78
I know one thing, dlineman didn't have a carry or an elusiveness rating.
Are you sure...What would happen if a Dlineman picked a ball off/recovered a fumble and...I think you get were I am going with this right?

That Dlinemen now is running with the ball in his hand. When he gets tackled or tries to do a move, the system checks to see what his ratings are while trying to perform those moves and if he will fumble the ball or not. The offensive players are getting checks on their tackle ability to see if they can take him down. The defense is now run blocking down the field to set up blocks and the offense are using block shedding moves to get off those blocks...I wonder how these players are able to do this without those ratings/abilities

In theory, any defensive player who gets the ball in his hands has the run abilities of a no star player(or whatever the basic player is in 2k8) that means there are thousands of players who are generically defined because there isnt a numerical system in place. They are all given basic abilities but RL players do have skills in playing football regardless of what position they play. Madden is able to define these skills by giving them a proper rating(when they see that they can perform as such)

How is that better then what madden could do? How can players in a 2k8 system be able to progress in a realistic manner?

Food for thought, If we were able to take every player and change their position in a 2k8 system...What would happen if you signed a dozen kickers and moved them all to the Oline? Again in theory, because they have no abilities to perform like good Oline they will be given the skills of a basic Oline. Meaning instead of getting completely beat like they were school girls against the NFL they will hold their own just like a basic Oline player.(Please note that madden doesnt properly represent a 10 rated Olinemen compared to a 60 but again in theory if madden gave animations to properly show that end of the spectrum then they would play like school girls)Madden does however(besides all madden) show a great difference between overall 99s and overall 60s(I did the tests myself average time in pocket is 2-3 seconds with 60s and with 99s it is 5-6 seconds not including some plays that lasted over 15 seconds against elite pass rushers)

Last edited by Glorious Arc; 11-30-2009 at 08:10 PM.
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Old 11-30-2009, 07:58 PM   #42
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Re: Madden needs even more streched ratings.

EA has yet to realize that the position specific attributes are where they need to concentrate the effort to separate players.

IE - 2 WRs with 99 spd 99 acc and 99 agi could be completely different players if WR A had 99 Route Run and player B had 80 route run - that should be a huge and very noticeable difference, but currently the difference is very small (I know I tested this)!

Route running should be an indicator of how sharp a guy cuts within his AGI/ACC ratings - so a WR with 90 ACC 90 AGI and 99 route run would cut based on the max of his ACC/AGI ratings - conversely a WR with 99 ACC/AGI with an 80 Route run would cut during his routes at about %80 of his ACC/AGI numbers thus making him less effective.

RR (route run) should also impact the correctness of depth of routes - say the play calls for a 5 yd out, but the 80 RR WR runs it at 7 yds, which screws the timing of the route and gets your QB sacked or you throw it anticipating 5 yds and the DB picks it cuz your WR failed to run the route at the correct depth!

RR should also affect how closely the DBs can anticipate the route, 99 ManCov CBs should be rare but have excellent ability to recognize routes (notice I did not say play recognition, but route recognition) and if you show that DB the same route multiple times he is gonna shut it down (no matter if the actual play is different). When matched up against 99 RR WRs they should "sell" something else - as in a WR running a Post would head fake towards the corner, or when running an out or hitch he should "sell" the fly route.

I don't know how to figure the computations the game needs to make, but 99 RR vs. 99 ManCov should be an interesting battle - of course if you have a 99 RR WR with 99 SPD vs a 99 RR DB with 89 SPD the DB may jump the route or be in perfect position at the cut point, but if given time the WR will seperate due to the speed advantage, meaning you will have to "roll" safety help to that DB, or dbl team the WR or whatever!

These "position specific" attributes are where EA needs to expand or spread out how the numbers affect the game play!!!
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Old 11-30-2009, 08:12 PM   #43
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Re: Madden needs even more streched ratings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glorious Arc
We know they have numbers because every game engine requires data to be used to perform its actions. It could have been as simple as a player having a 1-4 in a given rating. At level 1 they had basic abilities. At level 2 they perform regular actions. At level 3 they perform advanced actions. And finally at level 4 they are experts and make those eye popping actions.

The difference between madden and 2k8 is madden instead of saying 1-4 they have 40-99. Everyone issue is that madden doesnt have enough animations to properly represent the elite from the scrubs and people have formed an erroneous belief that 2k8 was more complex/better because of the game play. From the franchise perspective,(considering players are rating 1-4 with 2k8 and madden has 40-99) 2k8 is on an elementary level and madden is in high school.

You say that the game needs to simplify its ratings and move to a 2k8 set but how would you have progression work?

Here is an idea of what madden could do with adding in a "weapons system"/adding more ratings for more abilities.
http://www.operationsports.com/forum...coach-m11.html

If more animations were added in that way then the game would become extremely more complex and realistic.

Your issue with some of the ratings being redundant is fair. I have another idea of how to make some of the ratings matter more and make the game more realistic. This would allow for strong players who dont know how to properly use their strength perform accordingly.
http://www.operationsports.com/forum...c-ratings.html

Specifically speaking, footwork and agility arent the same thing. Agility is a physical skill set and footwork is a technical skill. Someone could not be able to change directions well but could have trained to bend properly and move skillfully. It is slightly different with agility and elusiveness. Agility is a physical skill set and elusiveness is the manner in which someone can break a tackle without using a move(in practice elusiveness is more used for the truck stick with players who cant truck) Players who have great juke/spin moves but arent elusive tend to get tackled much faster then someone who is elusive but has average moves(RL speaking not madden because of how madden uses elusiveness)
Whether 2k8's rating system was numerical are not really isn't the issue. The issue is that 2k8's was simple, and it was superior. I know it's the superior system because it did it's job; Madden's system clearly isn't doing what's it's intended to.

In real life, we don't process player's abilities as a 45,46,48,53, 98 or whatever. We look at players as elite, great, good, average and below average. The game needs to simulate that in my opinion. Can you tell me that you can honestly tell the difference on TV between Desean Jackson's break away speed from Chris Johnson's. CJ ran the faster 40 time in Indy, but is one player any more of a break away threat than the other. If you didn't know their 40 times at the combine, would you be able to tell ? Probably not, can you tell how much better Randy Moss is at catching the ball at it's highest point than Fitz, or is Fitz better.

If a player is elite at something, they're elite. Progression could actually be a lot better, because it would be more noticable with system that isn't as complex . A lot of players make big jumps from one year to the next because of experience. Natural ability may change a little, but not enough to make the player more productive. It's more about adusting to the NFL level.

Let's say you've got a WR that's a burner when he comes into the league. He may not be the best route runner, and his hands may not be the surest. In one, two, three or however many seasons, he may gain possesion WR abilites, and run better routes making him the total package. When he loses a step, he simply won't be a burner any more, but he'll still have the hands and run good routes.

If you've got a young QB. He may have a strong arm, and be mobile, however, he may not read defenses well or be as accurate. When he progresses, he may get more accurate or become a signal stealer. When he ages, he'll become less mobile and if he has a rocket arm, he may lose that, he may not(Favre still has a cannon). He'll still be able to throw pin point passes and read defenses.

Maybe footwork and agility are different, that's only one example. Agility and elusiveness are one in the same. I can't think of any player that was elusive without being agile. Madden needs to allow agility to handle the elusive moves with the r-stick. They to allow strength to handle run blocking strength and pass blocking strength; they need to allow "break tackle" to handle trucking ability; PRC in unneccessary when we already have AWR. How can a player be good a recognizing plays when he's not that aware of what's going on around him ?
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Old 11-30-2009, 08:21 PM   #44
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Re: Madden needs even more streched ratings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glorious Arc

That Dlinemen now is running with the ball in his hand. When he gets tackled or tries to do a move, the system checks to see what his ratings are while trying to perform those moves and if he will fumble the ball or not. The offensive players are getting checks on their tackle ability to see if they can take him down. The defense is now run blocking down the field to set up blocks and the offense are using block shedding moves to get off those blocks...I wonder how these players are able to do this without those ratings/abilities
You're seriously nit picking now. I doubt take two tried to determine which Dlineman was worse at carrying the football. If they had ratings for that, they all probably got the same rating. As far as defensive lineman are concerned, that's not a rating in the true sense because ratings are meant to make one player superior or inferior to another.
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Old 11-30-2009, 08:23 PM   #45
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Re: Madden needs even more streched ratings.

I do agree that some simplicity may be in order - a reduction in the number of attributes may help - I mean I don't think the new attributes have made the kind of difference between players as apparent as I had hoped for!

The RBK/PBK STR kills me - how can a player be 87 STR and yet his PBK STR is 98????

The thing is that most of the new ratings have not had the WOW impact that I felt they might have. Some of them don't seem to work at all if the difficulty is set too high or too low so unless EA plans to "stretch" these out (as far as how the CPU calculates them in game) then they should simplify them by reducing out some of the numbers!

Heck testing shows that punters and kickers can stonewall the best Dlinemen in the game so why have blocking ratings at all?
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Old 11-30-2009, 09:06 PM   #46
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Re: Madden needs even more streched ratings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boregard
I do agree that some simplicity may be in order - a reduction in the number of attributes may help - I mean I don't think the new attributes have made the kind of difference between players as apparent as I had hoped for!

The RBK/PBK STR kills me - how can a player be 87 STR and yet his PBK STR is 98????

The thing is that most of the new ratings have not had the WOW impact that I felt they might have. Some of them don't seem to work at all if the difficulty is set too high or too low so unless EA plans to "stretch" these out (as far as how the CPU calculates them in game) then they should simplify them by reducing out some of the numbers!

Heck testing shows that punters and kickers can stonewall the best Dlinemen in the game so why have blocking ratings at all?
RBK strength and PBK strength should really be less about strength and more of a skill in my opinion.

For example a player's ability to push a defender back and open up a hole is dependent on a few abilities. It requires the strength represented by the strength rating but also requires the leverage and positioning and technique to get the leverage advantage and push the defender back which should be shown by the RBK strength.

Keeping from being shoved back into the QB in protection requires strength to match the opponent and fight them off but also requires the technique to get leverage which should come from the PBK strength rating to modify that strength rating.

Without these ratings then any DLineman with 95 strength would be able to become a good OLineman. Also, you may say that the footwork ratings should handle this or are otherwise useless but this is not so much the case. PBK footwork should determine the ability to stay in front of a rusher and move laterally adjusting to changes in direction and some pass rush moves. RBK footwork should determine how well a player avoids being beat by power moves and seals off the hole turning the defender away from the running lane.

As to the "punters being able to play oline" thing that is due partially to the low end limit on ratings still being like 60 even though ratings are now shown lower than that as well as sliders and difficulty levels playing more into success rates than ratings.

Last edited by kcarr; 11-30-2009 at 09:08 PM.
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Old 11-30-2009, 09:25 PM   #47
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Re: Madden needs even more streched ratings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tito78
In real life, we don't process player's abilities as a 45,46,48,53, 98 or whatever. We look at players as elite, great, good, average and below average. The game needs to simulate that in my opinion. Can you tell me that you can honestly tell the difference on TV between Desean Jackson's break away speed from Chris Johnson's. CJ ran the faster 40 time in Indy, but is one player any more of a break away threat than the other. If you didn't know their 40 times at the combine, would you be able to tell ? Probably not, can you tell how much better Randy Moss is at catching the ball at it's highest point than Fitz, or is Fitz better.
We aren't football scouts either. We don't have a stopwatch to tell that Player A runs at 4.2 and Player B runs at 4.3

Likewise with evaluating any football skills. So I guess all players should have the same abilities because we can't tell on TV who is better than what?

Are all elite runners the same? Are all "super fast" runners running at the same speed? If not, then they need a difference. Regardless of if you, me, or anyone else can tell the difference by watching on TV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tito78
If a player is elite at something, they're elite. Progression could actually be a lot better, because it would be more noticable with system that isn't as complex . A lot of players make big jumps from one year to the next because of experience. Natural ability may change a little, but not enough to make the player more productive. It's more about adusting to the NFL level.
Which means physical ratings should change a little, but the non-physical/technique ratings should grow the most on young players, and then the reverse for older players - physical abilities drop more while their experience helps them maintain their technique and keep playing until they just can't keep up anymore.

That means the progression curves need to be changed - which could be done with the current system.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tito78
Let's say you've got a WR that's a burner when he comes into the league. He may not be the best route runner, and his hands may not be the surest. In one, two, three or however many seasons, he may gain possesion WR abilites, and run better routes making him the total package. When he loses a step, he simply won't be a burner any more, but he'll still have the hands and run good routes.
Again, a case to change progression curves - which could happen under the current system.

You basically described that young WR increased his RTE and CTH a lot, then when he got older his SPD and ACC dropped off.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Tito78
Maybe footwork and agility are different, that's only one example. Agility and elusiveness are one in the same. I can't think of any player that was elusive without being agile.
No they are not.

Players that are Elusive know how to slip out of tackles. That's not necessarily the same as being able to stop and change direction on a dime. You can slip a tackle without making a full cut.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tito78
PRC in unneccessary when we already have AWR. How can a player be good a recognizing plays when he's not that aware of what's going on around him ?
You can be aware of what's going on around you but not be able to anticipate what's going to happen before it does. PRC helps anticipation. AWR helps being aware of what's happening as it's in progress.

PRC helps a DL see a screen before it even fully develops. AWR helps a DL that didn't see it off the snap to realize what's happening and chase down the screen from behind (i.e. he got sucked into the initial "trap" but realized what was happening and got back into the play).

PRC would help a defender pick up something on the QB's drop back/OL blocking that would give away a play action attempt. High AWR would be seeing quicker that the HB isn't really running the ball so forget about him. AWR would also help on the blitz during PA. High AWR won't stop going after the QB to follow the HB. Or if he does, he'll realize faster the HB doesn't have the ball.
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Old 11-30-2009, 09:27 PM   #48
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Re: Madden needs even more streched ratings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tito78
You're seriously nit picking now. I doubt take two tried to determine which Dlineman was worse at carrying the football. If they had ratings for that, they all probably got the same rating. As far as defensive lineman are concerned, that's not a rating in the true sense because ratings are meant to make one player superior or inferior to another.
How is it nitpicking to bring up an actual situation that happens in almost every football game (any turnover or INT brings up this situation, not to mention special teams plays like KR/PR)?
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