Vision Cone Discussion

[macaframa3]

Everyone keeps talking about changing the actual passing ability by adding so much complexity. What about the other things QB's have to do? Like pocket pressence and whether to run or not.

Face it in a video game you WILL NEVER be able to feel the pocket collapsing like in real life. If you add all this complexity to the pass. It completley eliminates the ability to move around the pocket. Just like with the vision cone. You spent so much attention on moving the cone around you couldnt work the pocket at all.

The same people demanding these "imporvements" are the same ones that will complain when they are not implemented perfectly. And believe me this amount of complexity with be handled wrong atleast at first. ITS 2010 AND WE JUST BECAME ABLE TO THROW IT TO THE SIDELINES!

They need to keep the basic structure and fix the issues that have been present for years. Every year they attempt a gimmick to seem as if they are "advancing". Doing this leaves huge holes in gameplay they could be fixing instead.

[Only1LT]

Quote: Originally Posted by macaframa3

Everyone keeps talking about changing the actual passing ability by adding so much complexity. What about the other things QB's have to do? Like pocket pressence and whether to run or not. Face it in a video game you WILL NEVER be able to feel the pocket collapsing like in real life. If you add all this complexity to the pass. It completley eliminates the ability to move around the pocket. Just like with the vision cone. You spent so much attention on moving the cone around you couldnt work the pocket at all. The same people demanding these "imporvements" are the same ones that will complain when they are not implemented perfectly. And believe me this amount of complexity with be handled wrong atleast at first. ITS 2010 AND WE JUST BECAME ABLE TO THROW IT TO THE SIDELINES! They need to keep the basic structure and fix the issues that have been present for years. Every year they attempt a gimmick to seem as if they are "advancing". Doing this leaves huge holes in gameplay they could be fixing instead.

Agree that there are many issues with the game that need to be fixed, but I guess we disagree that the passing mechanic is one of them.

As far as not being able to run around and aim, this happens everyday in every First or Third Person Shooter, as well as other game genres, as more and more games, that are not shooters, are utilizing FPS/ 3rd PS control schemes. So to say that you can't do two things at once, is unequivocally false. It might prove more difficult for a great many people. That I will grant you. But not possible? Of course it is.

Lastly, the fact that they can't replicate ALL aspects of the real life game, doesn't mean that you don't try to replicate the aspects that you can lol. Frankly, I'm not even sure why you would make that statement

[Tyrant8RDFL]

Quote: Originally Posted by michapop9

Once again off topic but another thing to differentiate qb's which isnt in madden is how fast they release the ball according to there throwing style, they may look different which is very cool, but as far as Ive seen they all take the same amount of time to release the ball. a "quick release" for a qb could possible be rating as well, in other words once the qb has made the decision to throw how fast he gets rid of it, this rating could be used for any type of throwing motion just the higher the rating the faster the motion. ( Im sure its hard to pull of in a video game with code and everything else going on................but thats no excuse

I totally agree. Different speeds on thier release would make them feel different. I mentioned this earlier.

Now for a difference in how they read a defense. What you mention can work with more icons appearing for this QB over that QB, but the range of the vision can not be ridiculous like it was with the vision cone. Manning lite up more than half the field, and that was crazy.

well I guess something can be done, but it has to be a nice simple scheme.

Quote: Originally Posted by macaframa3

Face it in a video game you WILL NEVER be able to feel the pocket collapsing like in real life. If you add all this complexity to the pass. It completley eliminates the ability to move around the pocket. Just like with the vision cone. You spent so much attention on moving the cone around you couldnt work the pocket at all.

If you played BB you would have not made the comment in regards to the feel of the pocket. In BB pre patch. They defintely gave you that feeling, so it can be done.

[macaframa3]

Quote: Originally Posted by Only1LT

Lastly, the fact that they can't replicate ALL aspects of the real life game, doesn't mean that you don't try to replicate the aspects that you can lol. Frankly, I'm not even sure why you would make that statement

Its not about being able to replicate ALL aspects of the game. Its about consistently attempting add these faux-realistic elements that make people think the more complexity they add the more realistic it is. Too me and many others it just appear as gimmicks. The cone sucked before and would suck again.

The day the cursor can move as fast as an NFL players eyes is the day I'll agree that is ADDS realism to make a cone or cursor. It doesn't make sense. It illogical to say you should have to pan a cursor around to attempt a decision on who to pass to. In real life this decision can be made in a fraction of a second.

[Only1LT]

Quote: Originally Posted by macaframa3

Its not about being able to replicate ALL aspects of the game. Its about consistently attempting add these faux-realistic elements that make people think the more complexity they add the more realistic it is. Too me and many others it just appear as gimmicks. The cone sucked before and would suck again. The day the cursor can move as fast as an NFL players eyes is the day I'll agree that is ADDS realism to make a cone or cursor. It doesn't make sense. It illogical to say you should have to pan a cursor around to attempt a decision on who to pass to. In real life this decision can be made in a fraction of a second.

The Cone may have sucked to you, but that doesn't mean everyone feels the same.

Everything in the game currently is a "faux-realistic element" lol. That's the point. Locomotion is a faux-realistic attempt to simulate human movement. Should we take that out? Isn't AI a faux-realistic attempt to mimic human decision making? Should we take that out too? If I can read through the rhetoric here, what you are really saying is that you want the controls as simple as possible. And that's fine. Again, different strokes, but to say that things should not be added because they are "faux-realistic" and calling them "gimmicks" doesn't compute. If you really believed that then you would want the game to stay the way it is now in ALL facets, and literally be just a roster update.

I am curious what makes you think that the cursor would move slowly? Fast as the speed of thought? No, but it could move pretty damn fast if you wanted it too. And even if it couldn't, can you aim a gun as fast in a Shooter as you can in real life? Probably not, but that doesn't mean that they should stop making shooters.

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you. All I'm saying is that, yes, none of the passing systems, current or proposed, is perfect. None of them. None of them nails every aspect of realism in the passing game. The only thing I am saying is that out of all the options mentioned, which all have their limitations, the one that leaves MOST of the aspects of real life passing out, is the current one. I don't see how that can be argued.

The only real argument is how to go about making it better. The unfortunate thing is that most people's solution for how to make the passing mechanic better is to leave it the way it is lol.

[michapop9]

great discussion fellas i appreciate it, good points maca..I apologize i cant remember the rest of your screen name off hand. Anyways, as for the fraction of a second it takes to pan around, we have an extra button available for use now right? with the ability to take off auto sprint it takes a fraction of a second to click RT or LT as long as it would take a qb to "visually inspect" the throwing lane. You can make up to 5 reads with this in under 5 seconds easily which is the average time a qb has in the pocket with out being blitzed. Now for another point the wider the cone of visibility the less time it takes to make the move or choice to pass, thus mimicking (the only way you can in a video game, im talking about user controlled qb's now) the qb's awareness. In all reality it takes a fraction of a second for peyton manning to make a decision, it takes longer for less versed, less able qb's ( manning is also 6'6") to scan the field. You can still use these less able qb's to good effect if you gameplan and have your most desired reciever picked out before the play happens if you read the defense, what the vision cone does is reduces his ability to improvise if the play breaks down or that desired reciever is covered, this is a very true to life scenario, great qb's are great when the play breaks down, average qb's can be good when the play goes as planned, can still make tight throws into tight coverages depending on there ability, pass acc and arm strength, but if the play breaks down they may not have that ability to make a 2nd 3rd or 4th read effectively or quick enough, again true to life. (kyle orton is a good example, a solid qb until the play breaks down, its only preseason but this year he looks to be making better decisions, maybe hes forced to becuase of the departure of brandon marshall, but the point is, he could be seeing the field, better, making quicker decisions, etc which the only way to mimick that would be a type of vision cone as we are talking about here, its not complex, and if you dont like it turn it off, I understand someone said here it could affect the A.I., but i dont think it would becuase you wouldnt have to change it in the first place, I agree the video game world isnt far enough along yet to be able to use the vision cone to your advantage as in looking off pass defenders, but it would be there to limit the ability of younger or less able qb's, and not have exaggerated accuracy problems be the only facter.

[Only1LT]

Quote: Originally Posted by michapop9

great discussion fellas i appreciate it, good points maca..I apologize i cant remember the rest of your screen name off hand. Anyways, as for the fraction of a second it takes to pan around, we have an extra button available for use now right? with the ability to take off auto sprint it takes a fraction of a second to click RT or LT as long as it would take a qb to "visually inspect" the throwing lane. You can make up to 5 reads with this in under 5 seconds easily which is the average time a qb has in the pocket with out being blitzed. Now for another point the wider the cone of visibility the less time it takes to make the move or choice to pass, thus mimicking (the only way you can in a video game, im talking about user controlled qb's now) the qb's awareness. In all reality it takes a fraction of a second for peyton manning to make a decision, it takes longer for less versed, less able qb's ( manning is also 6'6") to scan the field. You can still use these less able qb's to good effect if you gameplan and have your most desired reciever picked out before the play happens if you read the defense, what the vision cone does is reduces his ability to improvise if the play breaks down or that desired reciever is covered, this is a very true to life scenario, great qb's are great when the play breaks down, average qb's can be good when the play goes as planned, can still make tight throws into tight coverages depending on there ability, pass acc and arm strength, but if the play breaks down they may not have that ability to make a 2nd 3rd or 4th read effectively or quick enough, again true to life. (kyle orton is a good example, a solid qb until the play breaks down, its only preseason but this year he looks to be making better decisions, maybe hes forced to becuase of the departure of brandon marshall, but the point is, he could be seeing the field, better, making quicker decisions, etc which the only way to mimick that would be a type of vision cone as we are talking about here, its not complex, and if you dont like it turn it off, I understand someone said here it could affect the A.I., but i dont think it would becuase you wouldnt have to change it in the first place, I agree the video game world isnt far enough along yet to be able to use the vision cone to your advantage as in looking off pass defenders, but it would be there to limit the ability of younger or less able qb's, and not have exaggerated accuracy problems be the only facter.

I was the one who said that, and if the Vision Cone actually worked like it should, there is no way that you could have it in the game and still maintain the option of turning it off, unless there are two different AI schemes implemented in the game. One for when it's on, and one for when it's off.

The reason is simple. IF the VC is doing what it is supposed to do, then the AI controlled defenders should react to where you are looking. If I turn it off, then the AI obviously can not react to the cone anymore because it isn't there. And it can't be a situation where it is visually off for me, but on in the background for the AI to continue to react to, because I would have no way to manipulate it.

So, I'm not saying that it couldn't be in the game as an option, just that if it were, you would have to have two different AI schemes for when it is on and when it is off, or else one of them (maybe even both) will not work properly. And regardless of whether the devs would be willing to take the time to balance gameplay properly for when it is on as well as off, you would most likely have to pick one or the other for online multiplayer, because there is always a default setup decided upon for online.

In a perfect world, options are great, but if Tiburon was to go against their modus operandi and actually put the time into innovating the passing mechanic, I think it is a little naive to think that they would not make it the default, considering the effort that would have gone into to creating it.

Basically what I am saying is that there is no reason to soft soap the truth to the detractors of changing the passing mechanic. They most likely would have to learn what ever way is the new way IF it ever changed.

[michapop9]

good points only1lt and sorry for not remembering that you had made the statement about the A.I. logic. I understand and agree that if the vision cone were implemented to its potential, then you would have to have A.I. that reacts to it, meaning you could use the vision cone to look off defenders, that would be great and outstanding and I would love it. However understanding that options and customization make the world go round and there are just as many people who dont like the vision cone as those who do, LIMIT THE VISION CONE IN THIS ASPECT. In other words, what I was trying to say before is that the vision cone is strictly to limit the ability of qb's with lesser awareness, not to be used as a tool that the defense would react to, it would have no effect at all on the defense, just on the qb! So if you dont like it and turn it off, then the A.I. reacts the same! Thus more people are happy. Dont misunderstand me please Im a hardcore sports (football gamer) nerd and would love to use the vision cone to my advantage and look off defenders becuase that is realistic (there is no good argument that its not) however to make as many people as possible happy which has to be the case with a one horse show like madden, you have to limit the ability of the vision cone to only be used as a tool to differentiate QB's and not to manipulate defenses