Vision Cone Discussion

[lofeazy]

Quote: Originally Posted by cubsball899

the problem i have with this part of the idea is that then my human error would be compounded with whatever % error for a certain QB... and thats not how it should be at all, i like your idea to an extent but this part just bugs me, i think it would be better if the better a QB you use, the more forgiving the accuracy would be, for instance, with Peyton Manning, i would not have to place the cursor spot on and Manning will make up for my error (to an extent) with his superior accuracy. the way i see this it would be like what someone mentioned with the auto-aim on a FPS, the more accurate a QB, the more help the auto-aim gives you... ya feel it? BUT, that said the cursor based passing doesn't really deal with a QB's awareness, at least not in the idea you've outlined, because moving a cursor across the field would be the same with Manning as it is with Freeman, UNLESS, maybe with Josh Freeman your cursor moves more slowly?

Everthing your saying was in NFL FEVER the better the QB the better the cursor move and error you can make.If your QB suck the slower the cursor move and more on point with the pass you have to be.

[Only1LT]

Quote: Originally Posted by cubsball899

the problem i have with this part of the idea is that then my human error would be compounded with whatever % error for a certain QB... and thats not how it should be at all, i like your idea to an extent but this part just bugs me, i think it would be better if the better a QB you use, the more forgiving the accuracy would be, for instance, with Peyton Manning, i would not have to place the cursor spot on and Manning will make up for my error (to an extent) with his superior accuracy. the way i see this it would be like what someone mentioned with the auto-aim on a FPS, the more accurate a QB, the more help the auto-aim gives you... ya feel it? BUT, that said the cursor based passing doesn't really deal with a QB's awareness, at least not in the idea you've outlined, because moving a cursor across the field would be the same with Manning as it is with Freeman, UNLESS, maybe with Josh Freeman your cursor moves more slowly? it is a decent idea but definitely needs more brainstorming lmao.

Not a bad idea about the Auto-aim similar to a FPS. Makes sense. It is kind of the same thing, but I definitely understand the nuanced difference that it would make.

As far as the speed of the cursor, that is something that I had thought of and brought up before on other threads. I just forgot to mention it here. That is something that you could do.

I also went a step further to try and make it more tailored to the individual. In a FPS you can adjust the sensitivity of the cursor to be faster or slower. I would like to see that also for CBP. The caveat would be that there would be a cap depending on ratings. So for instance if you had Peyton. The max speed that you could adjust his cursor to would be 100. But if that is too fast for you, you could lower it as much as you want. If you had a Jamarcus Russell, you could could lower it as well as much as you want, but it could never go higher than 60. Just an example.

But yeah, I think that your ideas definitely have merit.

[Only1LT]

Quote: Originally Posted by lofeazy

Like some of the vision cone supporters says whats the differnets between P. Manning and Rogers? WoW Rogers throw a few more incomplete pass then Manning thats really telling me the a differenets?

It isn't really about the accuracy, speaking for myself only. It is more about simulating the QB actually looking at a receiver. This makes the game more realistic. Less simplistic. And it benefits the offense and the defense. The defense can actually see where you are looking and the offense can actually use strategy to look you off. The accuracy thing is a much smaller piece of the puzzle to me.

[Tyrant8RDFL]

Quote: Originally Posted by Only1LT

Dude. You have hella issues. I don't care if you hate people with different ideas as you. I don't care if it angers you when someone wants to change the passing system. I don't care if you think you are a "real" Madden fan. And you're not scaring anybody on the freaking internet by talking like you're gonna do somebody something lol. This is a forum. People are talking about ideas to make the game better. TALKING about it mind you. That is the purpose of the thread and the forum itself. You're not a "real" Madden fan, you're a "real" nut who is so blinded by blind loyalty that hearing someone TALK about an idea for something makes you want to do "heinous things" to people, then you belong in treatment because you shouldn't be walking around in public. Now the mods will probably ban me for what I said, but I'll be damned if I'm gonna let a "real" Madden tough guy play Gestapo behind a keyboard. Now that's "real" talk.

Wow he really pissed you off lol

Quote: Originally Posted by Only1LT

You misunderstood him. He is saying the same thing as you that accuracy isn't enough of a differentiation between QBs, which is why he wants something else, like the VC, to further differentiate them.

Thanks for clearing that up. Again bring back the vision cone!!!!

Just make it a option. PLEAAAAAAAAAASEEEEEEEE

[ac-greasy]

Quote: Originally Posted by JWurm7

This should end the discussion, but unfortunately it won't. Madden isn't a FPS. It's football. You add in cursor based passing, and that's when QB ratings become irrelevant. Then its just me. And as you said, I want to feel like I'm controlling the athlete, not demonstrating my ability to control a stick. I'm an avid Call of Duty fan. The cursor works for the game because its you playing, you're not selecting from a bunch of different guys with different skill sets. It's purely in the control of YOU.

Disagree completely...it would make player attributes even more relevant. Suppose that a QB's "accuracy" rating had a direct impact on where the ball lands in comparison to where you put your cursor? You would immediately see a difference between Manning and Sorgi. Just thinking out loud, lets say Mannings passes landed in or around the zone (where you put your cursor) 85% of of the time were as a Sorgi's 45%??? Then you add in a degradation of accuracy let's say if you're scrambling or rolling out...power would be dramatically impacted as well is the QB was moving as opposed to standing still in the pocket. EA could do a better job of this with the current passing system, I think we all could agree on that.

Beyong that, I agree with those who don't really see that big of a difference in QB play from player to player in the current game...

[michapop9]

Quote: Originally Posted by Only1LT

It isn't really about the accuracy, speaking for myself only. It is more about simulating the QB actually looking at a receiver. This makes the game more realistic. Less simplistic. And it benefits the offense and the defense. The defense can actually see where you are looking and the offense can actually use strategy to look you off. The accuracy thing is a much smaller piece of the puzzle to me.

ONLY1LT you seem to be the only one who gets what Im trying to say. This turned into a discussion about accuracy when what I said was the accuracy they have in place now is just fine, maybe a little overdone however its a good idea. WHAT I WAS TRYING TO SAY IS IN THE NFL WHAT TRULY DIFFERENTIATES QBS IS THE SPEED IN WHICH THEY MEAKE THEIR DECISIONS!!! There is nothing to mimick this in madden! Hence there is not enough differentiation because I THE PLAYER make the decisions for every qb. To be honest every NFL QB can make good accurate throws, some crumble more under pressure some feel more pressure becuase they cant make reads and make a decision quickly, if accuracy were the only thing in real life to differentiate qb's there would be very little difference like someone said on here a few incompletions here and there, thats it. IM NOT SAYING THE ACCURACY IN MADDEN IS BROKEN IM SAYING THERE NEEDS TO BE SOMETHING ELSE TO BETTER MIMIC QB'S DECISION MAKING AND READ ABILITY! AND I CANT THINK OF ANYTHING BETTER THAN THE VISION CONE! Some ideas on here sound pretty good, about the icons popping up instead of seeing a flashlight cone etc, thats what im looking for, not a discussion about accuracy.

sorry so long

[Kaanyr Vhok]

Quote: Originally Posted by Only1LT

Well... since you asked for a better idea than the vision cone lol... I want to see cursor based passing.

I cant go there. I would rather have Backbreaker's system without the cursors. To me Backbreaker with the patch cam and Madden's icon's is the best of both worlds otherwise you might as well go back to the cone.

Give me BB's system with icons and a right stick 'look' function to move the cam and I'm golden. Thats about as realistic as you can get. The only thing is you would have to play Madden split screen offline.

Cursor passing is flawed because the reaction time is a lot slower than what a real QB would have. If a play breaks down and you spot a receiver thats not in your progression you shouldn't have to shuffle shuffle shuffle like you do in Backbreaker. People complain about the camera in BB. Since they raised the camera the only problem is that its beholden to a cursor based system instead of something that allows you to move the cam freely which would better simulate what a QB is looking at. They are taught not to stare down a receiver but they have to turn their shoulders to see the other side of the field.

Now if we are talking about a cursor system that creates a cursor after the button is pressed or in BB's case after you press a button that activates the 'throw stick' then maybe thats something you could pull off.

[Only1LT]

Quote: Originally Posted by Kaanyr Vhok

I cant go there. I would rather have Backbreaker's system without the cursors. To me Backbreaker with the patch cam and Madden's icon's is the best of both worlds otherwise you might as well go back to the cone. Give me BB's system with icons and a right stick 'look' function to move the cam and I'm golden. Thats about as realistic as you can get. The only thing is you would have to play Madden split screen offline. Cursor passing is flawed because the reaction time is a lot slower than what a real QB would have. If a play breaks down and you spot a receiver thats not in your progression you shouldn't have to shuffle shuffle shuffle like you do in Backbreaker. People complain about the camera in BB. Since they raised the camera the only problem is that its beholden to a cursor based system instead of something that allows you to move the cam freely which would better simulate what a QB is looking at. They are taught not to stare down a receiver but they have to turn their shoulders to see the other side of the field. Now if we are talking about a cursor system that creates a cursor after the button is pressed or in BB's case after you press a button that activates the 'throw stick' then maybe thats something you could pull off.

First off, you don't have to sell me on BB's passing camera. Right now, that's all I'm playing, and I am enjoying the game a lot with NFL rosters. So we are on the same page there.

As far as a cursor, I think you are confused. There is no cursor in BB. You lock on to individual receivers from left to right or right to left, depending on which way you flick the stick. This is a great way to simulate the QB actually looking at a receiver, without having the actual cone on the field. The only flaw with it is that it isn't possible to quickly snap to someone on the opposite side of the field. You would have to cycle through all the receivers in between until you got to the one you want. Now you can do this very quickly with practice, but it is still slower than a human being can turn his head, but I am ok with it because I don't mind being sacked sometimes. In Madden, I pretty much never get sacked. I would be more than ok with the BB passing system in Madden, but it still doesn't address the main issue I have with virtually all Football game's passing systems, and that is that the user does not control where the pass goes. For the most part, the AI does.

In BB, you have a similar type of Precision Passing (Madden)/ Maximum Passing (2K) like mechanic. You throw a pass that is tethered to a receiver, and you can put some english on it to put it a little in front, little behind, little low, etc. In Madden, the amount of "english" that you can put on a pass is extremely limited. You have more control over it in BB than you do in Madden, meaning that you can much more easily, over throw, under throw, or lead too much in BB, where as in Madden, you can hold the stick in a given direction as long as you want, and it will still be catchable 9 times out of 10. In fact, you are about as likely to have no affect on the outcome of where the ball goes as you are to affect it. If you don't believe me, go into practice and try to consistently over throw a Go route. I guarantee you will rarely be able to do it, so what are the "Precision Passing" controls really doing? Don't get me started on throwing passes in the dirt in front of a receiver because I am willing to wager that no one out there can make a YouTube video, that is unedited and live, where they go into practice and attempt to throw a pass so low that it lands at the receivers feet. If you could do it even twice in a row I would be absolutely flabbergasted, so again, what are the "Precision Passing" controls, really doing? But I digress.

The bottom line is that for me, and that's all I'm speaking for, is for me, that I want to be able to throw the ball to a SPOT on the field, and not on rails to a receiver. This is how it is in real life. This is real Total Control. There is no possible way to do this other than with a cursor, or reticule, or cross-hair if you will, like you have in a FPS. Doesn't have to look like a cross-hair. In fact I think it should look like a small circle, but it would have to be some kind of reticule or else you wouldn't know where the pass is going. This wouldn't be like the Fever cursor. In that game, the cursor comes from the receiver. I am talking about a free moving cursor that you can move anywhere over the field at all times.

Now this isn't about making passing more difficult like some have implied. It is simply about finding a way to simulate the QB's eyes so that the D has a chance to key off of it, like real life, and the O has a chance to look off the D, like real life, and also to be able to throw the pass where you want, again, like real life. When a QB is playing QB, he is not just reading the defense, he is also performing complex math equations in is head, every time he wants to throw. All athletes are when you get down to it, but let's just focus on the QB for now. When a receiver is running on a crossing pattern, the QB has to not only judge if the receiver is open, but where and when the receiver will arrive at the spot that he is open, and what velocity (velocity includes both speed (magnitude) as well as vector mind you for all you science buffs lol) the ball must be at in order for it to meet the receiver at the same time that he arrives at the right spot. That's really what this is about for me. I want to feel more like I am the QB, as opposed to just pushing a button.

Now people don't have to agree with me. Maybe it is more difficult than most people would like, but I have no problem with difficulty (I play Demon's Souls for goodness sake lol). People may not like the idea of FPS controls, and I get that also. Although I play FPS religiously now, there was a time when I had two left hands also, so I still maintain that with practice anyone CAN play them if it they are so inclined to learn. But I do get that people may not want to, so different strokes. I also get that many people associate games being more realistic, with less fun, but I am just the opposite.

Basically what I am saying is that I think my idea is pretty damned great, but that is because it is MY idea lol. It addresses the key issues that I think make the current Football Passing systems simplistic, non-immersive, and unrealistic to varying degrees. Having said that, that doesn't mean that I am against other options. I like passing in 2K. I like passing in BB. Never played Fever, but I would probably like that too. I also like the Vision Cone and would be ok with a new take on that as well. All this is about is the fact that the passing mechanic has remained basically unchanged for over 2 decades and I refuse to believe that there is nothing better than something that was created on an 8 bit system, 20yrs ago. I do not believe that.

I have yet to see anything in life that can not stand to be improved in some way. Why would Madden's passing system be any different?