Anyone else feel like the M12 "decides" when you'll throw an INT?

[ourpurpose]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

Alright, everybody get your giggles in now while continuing to blame EA for everything instead of taking control and making what you want to happen to happen. And don't say another word about 'real life' or the NFL because - EVERY CATCH in the NFL is a USER CATCH. For the record, I don't work for EA. I work for Madden players who take responsibility for what happens on the field in an effort to learn more and lose less. The OP asked if it felt like Madden dictates INT throws for no reason... I told him that poor mechanics were usually to blame. Why is it so strange to question someone's mechanics in real life, but when you do it for their Madden game they take it personally. It might be because they look at this game as merely pushing buttons... As if a trained monkey could do it and be effective. So when they say "My WR shouldn't turn and run the wrong way," and I respond with, "You shouldn't be standing there with your thumb up your arse watching him run the wrong way," they get mad at me. I could coddle and sugar coat - but in the end the medicine is what tastes NASTY. So to all the guys that complain that their receivers are running away from balls - quit watching and start playing. Or more tactfully, there are techniques people could use to solve their own problems without EA intervention right at their fingertips. Problem is, many of those problems are created in the same place. Correct the technique means correcting the errant throws. Too bad it takes more effort than the average Madden gamer is willing to exert. But I guess that if it didn't take more than 5 minutes everyone would do it. Later

Do you actually read what you type? Once again, an arrogant response without useful merit. Whether you realize it or not, your vague and ludicrous responses are portraying 'madden players' (whoever that is) in a negative manner. Maybe you could care less...

Is a user to do everything? Are we given to much AI help now? Should we be blocking for the qb too?

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by tazdevil20

You post on the wrong web site. The majority of sports gamers here want a realistic experience, while you could care less and ONLY care about winning. Everyone wants to win, but to some it's more about HOW you win. Your approach is actually a brute force approach and not nearly as strategic and methodical as you would like to believe it is. Your sole purpose is to win the game, and by winning, you get enjoyment. You could play 100 straight games and unless you won every single game at whatever cost, you would not feel at all content. There really isn't much of a difference between you playing Madden and playing a game like Call Of Duty. All that you are after is the end result of having more points than the other guy. While your approach to problem solving is admirable (instead of making excuses, searching for solutions from within), your view is very one-sided and doesn't really apply to most people. Madden is a video game and it carries little significance when it comes to winning an online game. Many folks want to play more football than a video game. It will never be REALLY true to life. Nothing can be - but it can be much closer than it is. That's why a lot of guys who play "madden" can't stand the "other" game or the "adult" game. You can't do all of this nonsense without paying a penalty for it. Madden encourages garbage tactics that turn it less into football and more into Call of Duty. Exercising user control is a good thing. Making plays and beating the proper play call is all a part of football and is a part of Madden. Players warping to areas on the field, morphing through other bodies and going into silly animations at the wrong times is NOT.

Slow down... You're making statements without knowledge of my motives under the assumption that I want to win no matter what the cost. REst assured, there is never a point in any game in which I compromise my ethics in order to get a win. It's NOT whether you win or lose, but how you play the game. There's nothing unethical about how I play...

The idea that I only enjoy the game when I win belies decades of evidence to the contrary. After 2 years of losing not some, not most, but EVERY GAME - I wouldn't have known what fun or enjoyment was.

I stand by my position that garbage tactics work in Madden solely because of the multitude of unprepared players who rely on terms like "garbage" and "cheese" where a football term would do.

You said that most gamers here want a realistic experience... I don't think so. I think they want a realistic 'spectator' experience because it's what we're most familiar with and it requires the least work to simulate. A realistic coach and player experience is much more effort intensive. Coaches must know all the nuances and players must be able to execute under duress. Neither is possible without a ton of diligent effort.

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

First off, Merry Christmas everyone. Now, TNT, I actually respect your approach of problem solving and effort to work around issues but that still acknowledges that there is a "problem" to solve. If I have an automatic car that won't start up, unless I have it in "drive", that is a problem with the way the car should start. The fact that there is an alternative method available to starting the car does not negate that a problem exists.

See... we have a slight difference of opinion. I used to have an automatic that only started when it was in Park. Seeing how this is the expectation, it's not a problem. The car was designed to only start in park. If your car only started in Drive, I'd assume that's the way THAT CAR IS SUPPOSED TO BE. I would not assume the DRIVE car had a problem because it wasn't like the PARK car unless you rigged it that way after the manufacturer.

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

Work arounds are a nice alternative for dealing with issues but they are not a substitute for things working correctly. Like I have stated before, when actually playing the game, there is little sense in complaining about issues, either adjust or quit. However, a Madden forum is the ideal place for discussing these issues, where some people express their displeasure with them and others suggest potential User work arounds but they are not mutually exclusive. Also, on this "sissified" "biscuit" stuff, concerning gamers complaining, it seems to presuppose that they lost. I have won many games in spite of the obvious issues that exist in Madden but still complained about them afterwards. To the victor goes the spoils and nobody ever calls it "sissified" or a "biscuit" move when the winner points out something wrong that's true, so the same thing should apply, period. It actually demonstrates "machismo" to speak up about what's wrong, after winning or losing but just quietly dealing with it and adjusting to it seems like a more "sissified" "biscuit" move, imo.

Winning is not exclusive to the 'macho.' Sometimes sissies win. That said, I've never been a fan of tact. I've often said that I would rather have the drill sergeant as a therapist. I don't walk on eggshells - I kick them out of the way.

Also, a Madden forum isn't just the ideal place to discuss issues that need correcting in the future. It's also a good place to teach people what and whom they are playing. You guys can worry about the Madden's of the future - I play the Madden of today.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aolian_Am

i think a big problem going on here is the differences in online ranked and offline franchises. in online games i never see this problem, i almost never run curls but i've played enough people where there entire gameplan is that one route. so for someone like TNT, who doesn't play very much offline games don't encounter this problem very much if at all. i think the problem is that madden "decides." not so much just that when you'll throw an interception, or when a big play needs to happen, but more who you have to throw to. the way it seems to me when playing the cpu, is it forces you into one option. so many time, at least in my case, you come into a play with your own notion of what is going to happen, i.e you run a curl flat play, and even though you hit the guy on the strongside 3 times before, maybe the guy on the weakside had more space so madden wanted you to look the other way. another thing is forcing you to throw a certain way. a good example would be drag over the middle against blitzes. i don't know how many times overthrowing a receiver to realize to start lobbing the pass. sure i would hit it most of the time with a bullet pass, but there was always a couple of just way off target passes. the more open my receiver was the more i would just air mail it. user catching it. i can't stress this enough. you are just hampering yourself by not switching on offense and defense. in many instances players won't even react properly. i see it all the time in online games where a person throws to a wide open person who doesn't even react to the ball, some of it falls on how you throw it too. sometimes you make bad throws and you can save yourself by user catching. the last point i want to make is that, on curl routes the receiver is supposed to attack the ball in the air. i heard it at least three time this year, when receivers are running a curl, and just sitting back for the ball, just to have the defender make a play on it. now if that's the problem idk, but i'm willing to bet most of it is user error.

True... The human vs CPU issues I'll never ever see... You couldn't pay me to play the CPU (make an offer and I might reconsider!!!).

But, I've expereinced many of the issues that people complain about including 'warping.' Can't avoid them. Don't feel good when they happen in my favor, don't feel bad when they go against me either.

Your instance of how the CPU doens't attack passes on stationary routes (hooks, curls, hitches, etc) is precisely why I emphasize USER CATCHING. I can't trust the CPU to attack the ball and catch it at the earliest moment unless I do it myself - the way I know it should be done. Fortunately EA has seen fit to include this capability.

Quote: Originally Posted by ourpurpose

Do you actually read what you type? Once again, an arrogant response without useful merit. Whether you realize it or not, your vague and ludicrous responses are portraying 'madden players' (whoever that is) in a negative manner. Maybe you could care less... Is a user to do everything? Are we given to much AI help now? Should we be blocking for the qb too?

Actually, I do read what I type. Believe it or not, I edit our the obscenely offensive stuff before hitting 'send.' You think this is harsh, you should read what I edit out. LOL

What you see as arrogance is the pride of knowing that I do what is needed to ensure that I can play anyone, anywhere, at any time without reservation after years of not being competitive. It's the smugness that comes from due diligence and the knowledge that anyone can go from 2 years with 0 wins against a handful of players to a winning percentage of better than .600 against the world.

But since you didn't glean any useful information from my last post(s) - I'll address your questions directly:

Is a user to do everything?

Right now the user calls the formation, personnel, play, protection, assignments, and controls the action (optional). The user may not be on the hook for everything, but I expect users to do more than most users are doing now.

Are we given to much AI help now?

Apparently not... Otherwise there wouldn't be so many people complaining about the AI not being helpful. I expect the USER to do what he doesn't trust the AI to do effectively and to be aware of what he can and cannot do within the framework of the electronic environment.

Should we be blocking for the qb too?

Yes. You should be checking the defensive front and adjusting your line, backs, and tight ends to protect your passer for as long as you need to get a throw away. Unfortunately, you must be aware of how the AI will block every potential front to know if, when, and how to adjust the blocking.

Alas, there are no insignificant details. But I refuse to exert mental energy worrying about the ones I can't avoid. As long as my opponent has to fear these issues too - it's still a fair game.

Later

[jmood88]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

Alright, everybody get your giggles in now while continuing to blame EA for everything instead of taking control and making what you want to happen to happen. And don't say another word about 'real life' or the NFL because - EVERY CATCH in the NFL is a USER CATCH. For the record, I don't work for EA. I work for Madden players who take responsibility for what happens on the field in an effort to learn more and lose less. The OP asked if it felt like Madden dictates INT throws for no reason... I told him that poor mechanics were usually to blame. Why is it so strange to question someone's mechanics in real life, but when you do it for their Madden game they take it personally. It might be because they look at this game as merely pushing buttons... As if a trained monkey could do it and be effective. So when they say "My WR shouldn't turn and run the wrong way," and I respond with, "You shouldn't be standing there with your thumb up your arse watching him run the wrong way," they get mad at me. I could coddle and sugar coat - but in the end the medicine is what tastes NASTY. So to all the guys that complain that their receivers are running away from balls - quit watching and start playing. Or more tactfully, there are techniques people could use to solve their own problems without EA intervention right at their fingertips. Problem is, many of those problems are created in the same place. Correct the technique means correcting the errant throws. Too bad it takes more effort than the average Madden gamer is willing to exert. But I guess that if it didn't take more than 5 minutes everyone would do it. Later

You still have yet to address the DB warping that happens far too often.

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

...See... we have a slight difference of opinion. I used to have an automatic that only started when it was in Park. Seeing how this is the expectation, it's not a problem. The car was designed to only start in park. If your car only started in Drive, I'd assume that's the way THAT CAR IS SUPPOSED TO BE. I would not assume the DRIVE car had a problem because it wasn't like the PARK car unless you rigged it that way after the manufacturer....

Really? LOL

C'mon TNT, you're better than that.

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

Really? LOL C'mon TNT, you're better than that.

Weird doesn't mean wrong - just different.

Later

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by jmood88

You still have yet to address the DB warping that happens far too often.

How would you have me "address" warping?

If you're expecting me to say it doesn't happen, isn't an issue, and never effects the game - I'm going to disappoint you. Warping sucks whether it goes for or against you.

I'm not sure I would say it happens 'far too often.' Out of almost 200 online games, I've had less than 20 warp-thru situations. That may qualify as far too often when compared to reality, but since it has happened in every other video game I've ever played with 3D player models - it's not a surprise for this video game.

In any case, I have never experienced warping with a user controlled player. Which may account for my low occurrence of warp-thru catches.

Later

[Ampking101]

@TNT

I would have quoted you but I'm gonna touch on a couple of things you have posted both in here and in other topics but it mostly pertains to INTs so to quote would be redundant. First of all let me say I played QB in high school was decent enough to get a scholarship for Texas A&M. Got injured my senior year and trashed my arm pretty good so I never played a snap in college but I have played in amateur leagues so I know the basis of running an offense. Secondly I have dabbled in game coding (as in I can build the basis of games) but nothing to the extent of game developers so I won't claim to have a grasp on all of the coding but I have a fair bit of knowledge....well enough to get by that is.

Now I will agree with your stance on user error. Being a QB you have to be pretty savvy to other player positions (eg: how a guard will block different from a tackle, how to tell if a WR trashed his route by cutting to early/late, if the DBs are sneaking, is a SS blitzing, is the FS in man or zone, is a DE gonna cut inside or try to rush the edge) things of that sort so you can make the calls on the field and have a decent idea of how the play is going to go. Your job as the GM/Coach/QB/WR/DB/Safety/etc. is to make sure those players are doing their job. To have a pure football simulation experience you have to go find a team amateur/semi-pro/pro/etc. to get that experience. So we do have to keep in mind there is never going to be a perfect madden game. Now I won't touch on things like DB warping and whatnot because it's already been addressed. The biggest problem I have and it doesn't happen extremely often (and I'm a bit surprised no one has mentioned it) is magnet catches/interceptions but I'll get to that in a minute.

Now I'll be the first to admit I'm an athlete first and a gamer second when it comes to Football games in general so I will say with all honestly my stick skills are no where as good as they should be. In my experience as a QB if I throw to a WR I'm gonna trust my WR to make that play. Does it always happen no, but I trust him just like he trusts me to make that throw and get that ball to him to "get the bread in the basket" if you will. With all that being said, I can honestly say more times than not I know usually the moment I press that button if I've messed up and thrown an interception because I know there was something I didn't account for (aka user error) I know how the game works both on the field and in coding so I can usually get a good sense on if I feel good about that throw or bad about it the moment I make it. So I'll be the first to say, who do I blame for the INT? I blame myself.

Do I wish the AI was smarter and played like I could trust them like in real life? Heck yeah I do. With them only having a year to dish out Madden each season that isn't much time to do with coding and I understand why they have issues like DB Warping. It sucks, it sucks bad but it happens.

Now back to Magnet Catches/Interceptions. Now these things tick me off whether it works to my advantage or not. It punishes you for making a good read against a great player. Now the player I have seen this done most with is Jon Beason as far as interceptions go but it happens sometimes with LBs and rarely but sometimes with DBs. But say I call Julio Jones in a curl route in the middle of the field and Beason is in a QB spy. I know he is watching my QB and sneaking on that pass but I see Julio off to the side about two yards away knowing that if I throw it I have enough time to get that ball to my WR. The moment I release that ball I know it's a first down but then the coding decides Jon Beason has a better awareness than Jones does. So he jumps for that ball, he doesn't slide TO the ball the ball changes trajectory in mid air going to Beason now instead of Jones. I made a good read, made a good throw but the game punishes me for it. On the other side, as a QB I hate knowing I've just air mailed it and left my guy no chance of getting it only to have the ball change trajectory and go right into his hands before I have the chance to make a play on that ball. I made a bad read, a bad throw and I'm rewarded for it? How do either of those make sense.

Now I know that football is a game of x's and o's and Madden can't help being a game of 1's and 0's but things like that just get to me. In that sense I still have to remember, it's the way the game works now as you said. I would like it to work better in the future but right now I have Madden 12 and I have to live with what I have.

I like to make comments on what would make it better on here with like minded people and when you come in here and make certain comments I think you come off as hard headed and mean the way that you approach things but also having been in football I know that they drill that hard mindedness into you and I also know never to judge a book on it's cover, so do I think you are just outright mean? No not really. Do you come off that way? Kind of. I'll also state though that I remember in practice if I threw an interception because I was being pressured, on the next 3 plays I was without a red shirt (free to be hit) and only left with my center and HB against the entire Dline and if I didn't complete the next three passes in a row I had to do it all over again. It a tough game for tough people I agree with you completely but Madden does have some issues that would be nice if they were ironed out. I agree I can't complain too much because they have made a lot of things better and overall it is 99.9% better than when the first madden dropped in stores but I would like to see some of the obvious wrinkles ironed out.

BTW I play online and offline franchises so I see a lot of stuff online that people that offline don't see and vice-versa.

[TheDelta]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ampking101

Now back to Magnet Catches/Interceptions. Now these things tick me off whether it works to my advantage or not. It punishes you for making a good read against a great player. Now the player I have seen this done most with is Jon Beason as far as interceptions go but it happens sometimes with LBs and rarely but sometimes with DBs. But say I call Julio Jones in a curl route in the middle of the field and Beason is in a QB spy. I know he is watching my QB and sneaking on that pass but I see Julio off to the side about two yards away knowing that if I throw it I have enough time to get that ball to my WR. The moment I release that ball I know it's a first down but then the coding decides Jon Beason has a better awareness than Jones does. So he jumps for that ball, he doesn't slide TO the ball the ball changes trajectory in mid air going to Beason now instead of Jones. I made a good read, made a good throw but the game punishes me for it. On the other side, as a QB I hate knowing I've just air mailed it and left my guy no chance of getting it only to have the ball change trajectory and go right into his hands before I have the chance to make a play on that ball. I made a bad read, a bad throw and I'm rewarded for it? How do either of those make sense.

Thank you, that's exactly my experience, fully in agreement here. Most INTs I throw, I can blame myself (or my crappy QB... I mean a bad QB is supposed to throw it worse than Brady or Rodgers...) for, but sometimes, stuff like this happens.

But, it may not be realistic, but it makes some kind of sense, you can work around stuff like that by simply avoiding players like that. Beason is an example, and I don't think there's a player in this game I've thrown more picks to than Urlacher (especially since I'm playing a Vikings franchise now...), among DBs, Ed Reed is a pretty crazy ballhawk. So yes, it may not be like you see it on sunday, but if I'm playing against the Bears, I already know my TE is not going to have a huge game, because I don't even think throwing it to him unless Urlacher is either blitzing or on the other side of the field or something. If I'm playing the Ravens, I always check which side of the field Reed is playing, and I know before I snap it, that side of the field is a complete no-go for any kind of pass beyond 10 yards, and so on.

It takes a while getting used to, forces me to call other plays and routes than what I'd call against other teams, but with tactics like that, I've cut my interception total from 24 in my first season down to 2 through 4 games of my second one, you just need to be aware of the players you're playing against and their ratings.

Again, I'm not saying it's a great, or even good system, but it's not completely random and you can work with it if you know your opponent.