There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

[TNT713]

@KB

You make some good points about how the "psychic DB" is never wrong and agree that pointing out discrepancies in coverage technique has a place...

But by that same token, the DB isn't always psychic. Throwing the ball when he is 'psychic' means someone made a BAD READ - which translates to the real game even if the coverage technique does not seem authentic. A good football decision is also a good Madden decision...

IMO, it's best to condition users to perfect their decision making process regardless of whether the game perfectly models football coverage techniques or not. If Madden 13 PERFECTLY DUPLICATES coverage, guys that make poor decisions to throw into coverage will still be making bad decisions and throwing into coverage - except they won't have the game to blame anymore...

The way I see it, the user is ALWAYS more of a factor in what happens in an individual play/game than EA because the devs aren't the reason our reads are bad.

Later

[GiantBlue76]

KB and TNT, both of you make good points here. I don't mind the route mirroring TOO much, but what I do hate are the following:

1. Warping - it happens to both the offensive and defensive player at times. IF the defender is beat by 3-4 yards, he will warp in front at the last minute or the receiver will stop his route so the defender can get it. I realize it's just a game and it's a dice roll that happens, but it greatly affects how you make a read and it's very frustrating. I threw a slant route yesterday in which Hakeem Nicks was in the slot and he beat the back easily off the line. As soon as I threw it he just stopped and went into that silly hunching over animation and the DB warped 5 yards forward to knock it down. Really? If the dice roll is such that Nicks "lost" then just have him be covered. Don't warp the player in front.

2. Routes that require timing - It's really hard to know whether or not the defender is going to make a play on the ball or not. Warping is a big problem for these (curls, comebacks, etc.). These routes are timing based. There are times when the corner is clearly running a deep zone and you throw the curl and he will magically stop and warp in front. Comebacks are really tough, because you need great pass protection since the routes take a long time to develop. That's fine, but it makes it very hard to make the right read when you see the receiver with separation and you suddenly throw it and the defender warps in front to make the play.

[Big FN Deal]

Since bad User decisions and poor game mechanics are being discussed, let's talk about how these outcomes are potentially being decided.

I hope people remember that Backtrack feature in Madden 09 where Collinsworth would breakdown the play, discuss where the ball should have been thrown and a success percentage graphic would be shown. Now maybe all that was just cosmetic and the percentage or what he was stating actually had nothing to with the play. However, it does present an interesting situation where if the game can calculate which target has the best chance of making the catch, is that what's causing those outcomes that seem disjointed from the animations.

Also, why wouldn't that system be set to calculate those percentages based on where the players are in relation to each other too, not just calculating how successful a certain offensive playcall and personnel are against a certain defensive playcall and personnel?

I don't know enough about programming to suggest how this should be done but it makes me wonder, if a system like this in working "under the hood" why doesn't it prevent things like shallow LB's knocking down deep passes, one hand interceptions by inept players, unrealistic runs against an optimum defensive call, etc?

[N51_rob]

Quote: Originally Posted by tazdevil20

KB and TNT, both of you make good points here. I don't mind the route mirroring TOO much, but what I do hate are the following: 2. Routes that require timing - It's really hard to know whether or not the defender is going to make a play on the ball or not. Warping is a big problem for these (curls, comebacks, etc.). These routes are timing based. There are times when the corner is clearly running a deep zone and you throw the curl and he will magically stop and warp in front. Comebacks are really tough, because you need great pass protection since the routes take a long time to develop. That's fine, but it makes it very hard to make the right read when you see the receiver with separation and you suddenly throw it and the defender warps in front to make the play.

This annoys me to no end. There are some routes that are timing based routes, the problem with most of them in madden is there is no timing. If you throw a hitch/curl route before the receiver has started his animation the route becomes vertical go route. If you throw an out or dig, before the receiver has made his break, the ball will be delivered right on their instep not out where they can run to the ball, which if you watch football, is not right at all.

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by tazdevil20

KB and TNT, both of you make good points here. I don't mind the route mirroring TOO much, but what I do hate are the following: 1. Warping - it happens to both the offensive and defensive player at times. IF the defender is beat by 3-4 yards, he will warp in front at the last minute or the receiver will stop his route so the defender can get it. I realize it's just a game and it's a dice roll that happens, but it greatly affects how you make a read and it's very frustrating. I threw a slant route yesterday in which Hakeem Nicks was in the slot and he beat the back easily off the line. As soon as I threw it he just stopped and went into that silly hunching over animation and the DB warped 5 yards forward to knock it down. Really? If the dice roll is such that Nicks "lost" then just have him be covered. Don't warp the player in front. 2. Routes that require timing - It's really hard to know whether or not the defender is going to make a play on the ball or not. Warping is a big problem for these (curls, comebacks, etc.). These routes are timing based. There are times when the corner is clearly running a deep zone and you throw the curl and he will magically stop and warp in front. Comebacks are really tough, because you need great pass protection since the routes take a long time to develop. That's fine, but it makes it very hard to make the right read when you see the receiver with separation and you suddenly throw it and the defender warps in front to make the play.

I hear what you're saying... There are aspects of passing in Madden that I dislike as well (who knew?). I'm just not always in agreement with the terms we use to describe them.

To me, warping suggests that a player increases speed exponentially to get into position, which is an issue in Madden sometimes... But it happens on both sides of the ball - particularly on routes where the receivers move horizontally to catch a touch pass. Warping in this sense doesn't bother me as much as others because the phenomenon is short lived... Never more than 2 accelerated steps - but at least their feet move.

Sliding bothers me more than warping because the feet remain stationary, but nothing bothers me as much as when one player moves through another.

I was playing a game once where an opponent's pass was thrown to a receiver with position underneath the safety only for the safety to PHASE through the receiver to make the catch... I won the game because of the INT and subsequent score, but I didn't feel good about it and both my opponent and I recognized the error and agreed that it was a bogus pick (but I wasn't giving him the ball back...lol).

Regarding #2, I'll touch on it later in the post.

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

Since bad User decisions and poor game mechanics are being discussed, let's talk about how these outcomes are potentially being decided. I hope people remember that Backtrack feature in Madden 09 where Collinsworth would breakdown the play, discuss where the ball should have been thrown and a success percentage graphic would be shown. Now maybe all that was just cosmetic and the percentage or what he was stating actually had nothing to with the play. However, it does present an interesting situation where if the game can calculate which target has the best chance of making the catch, is that what's causing those outcomes that seem disjointed from the animations. Also, why wouldn't that system be set to calculate those percentages based on where the players are in relation to each other too, not just calculating how successful a certain offensive playcall and personnel are against a certain defensive playcall and personnel? I don't know enough about programming to suggest how this should be done but it makes me wonder, if a system like this in working "under the hood" why doesn't it prevent things like shallow LB's knocking down deep passes, one hand interceptions by inept players, unrealistic runs against an optimum defensive call, etc?

I remember Backtrack as a good teaching tool that provided a guideline for making better decisions, but the percentage for which a play is effective against another play isn't as simple as it seems to be. In my travels, I find that there are many players who under-analyze and many who over-analyze - each tend to put the onus on EA. Very few that have a balanced analysis that points to the user's ability to use the tools EA provides.

Knowing that I have a 75% chance to beat a particular defense with a certain play doesn't actually imply why it won't work 25% of the time. For that we can't rely solely on the information provided in the game's analysis... We have to go further than that - but not so far that we blame the game with the probabilities the game suggests don't match our actual performance.

Quote: Originally Posted by N51_rob

This annoys me to no end. There are some routes that are timing based routes, the problem with most of them in madden is there is no timing. If you throw a hitch/curl route before the receiver has started his animation the route becomes vertical go route. If you throw an out or dig, before the receiver has made his break, the ball will be delivered right on their instep not out where they can run to the ball, which if you watch football, is not right at all.

Now to address #2 from Taz and N51.

Timing is uber-important in the Madden passing game. I've been a fan of the West Coast offense since the 49ers ran it in the late 80's. When I started playing Madden I wanted to duplicate the WC, but I knew very little about the offense and how it should be run...

After Madden '03, I bought a book called "The West Coast Offense" written by two coaches (Dave Henderson and another guy). As I learned how the WC should be run, I realized I'd been doing it wrong for more than a decade. :O

To run it right, I had to rebuild my offense from scratch, starting with my QB's drop. I practiced NOTHING but dropping back for about an hour... 3, 5, and 7 steps while counting each step aloud. This simple task changed my offense and made me 10x more dangerous because I was finally able to synchronize my QB's drop depth with my receivers routes... But it was only the beginning.

The next step became delivering the pass in a manner that 'fit' the route/QB drop synchronization. I found that if I threw on time, but threw too hard, the ball arrived too quickly. Likewise, if I threw on time and threw too soft, the ball arrived too late. During this process I discovered that ALL OF THESE FACTORS MATTER.

If I throw a pass to a receiver in his stem, the ball can still be delivered in a manner so that the receiver runs the route EVEN when the throw is released before the receiver cuts. Likewise, a pass can be delivered so the receiver to continues on his stem and runs the streak instead.

That said, some routes simply don't follow this principle. I avoid those routes. In Madden 10, I enjoyed the comeback routes N51 mentioned because the DB continued upfield when the WR turned outside. The pass was easy to deliver outside, short, and away from the defender. Here's the annoying part for me... Madden 11 comeback routes did not get the same separation nor did the QB deliver the ball short and outside. All 5 of the comeback routes I threw in Madden 11 got picked off.

I still practice comeback routes, but needless to say, I haven't run a single designed comeback in a game since pick #5 in Madden 11. But it's not because the route doesn't work - I've had them thrown successfully against my defense on more occasions than I like to admit. But I, as an individual user, have not mastered delivering the pass to this route either in practice so I don't feel comfortable using it in a game.

Ultimately, the timing of pass plays requires practice and precision that most of us don't take time to learn because we already think we know how it should be done.

Later

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

I hope people remember that Backtrack feature in Madden 09 where Collinsworth would breakdown the play, discuss where the ball should have been thrown and a success percentage graphic would be shown. Now maybe all that was just cosmetic and the percentage or what he was stating actually had nothing to with the play. However, it does present an interesting situation where if the game can calculate which target has the best chance of making the catch, is that what's causing those outcomes that seem disjointed from the animations. Also, why wouldn't that system be set to calculate those percentages based on where the players are in relation to each other too, not just calculating how successful a certain offensive playcall and personnel are against a certain defensive playcall and personnel?

Probably because it's another short cut. I wouldn't be surprised if Play A vs Play B sets base % chances of events. Then various things like whatever the user(s) do(es), the timing of button presses, etc, influence (if not override) these percentages to give the feel of user control/rewarding the user.

It's almost like a text sim - except a text sim has no way to (easily) do it any other way.

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

I don't know enough about programming to suggest how this should be done but it makes me wonder, if a system like this in working "under the hood" why doesn't it prevent things like shallow LB's knocking down deep passes, one hand interceptions by inept players, unrealistic runs against an optimum defensive call, etc?

I imagine it as using die rolls at each step of the play. Instead of all in one fell swoop, which leads to morphing and stuff to make the graphics conform to the die roll, calculate it piece by piece with checks for "zone of control" type things.

Then if there's no defender who's zone of control (which varies based on ratings) intersects the ball, then no defender can make a play. If there's three defenders - then those three get to roll against their ratings or such to make the play - or the offense gets insanely lucky and the pass is complete anyway.

Should also work on decisions for CPU players, modified (determined?) by traits for what action and then ratings for success of action. So if a DB with low CTH and JMP tried to get aggressive, he'd miss a vast majority of the time and burn his team while a conservative guy wouldn't even make that decision 9 times in 10.

I think that would go towards what you describe, probabilities that work based on position and space as to who has a chance at what plays and how likely they are to make them.

[baller7345]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

That said, some routes simply don't follow this principle. I avoid those routes. In Madden 10, I enjoyed the comeback routes N51 mentioned because the DB continued upfield when the WR turned outside. The pass was easy to deliver outside, short, and away from the defender. Here's the annoying part for me... Madden 11 comeback routes did not get the same separation nor did the QB deliver the ball short and outside. All 5 of the comeback routes I threw in Madden 11 got picked off. I still practice comeback routes, but needless to say, I haven't run a single designed comeback in a game since pick #5 in Madden 11. But it's not because the route doesn't work - I've had them thrown successfully against my defense on more occasions than I like to admit. But I, as an individual user, have not mastered delivering the pass to this route either in practice so I don't feel comfortable using it in a game. Ultimately, the timing of pass plays requires practice and precision that most of us don't take time to learn because we already think we know how it should be done. Later

If you are talking about the deep 15 yard comebacks they are much improved this year. The route is ran much smoother and the throw is delivered much better. There are two plays out of GB's book both called Packer's Comebacks that have 2 of these and a Post over the middle and those are some of my favorite plays for beating man coverage and cover 3. Now it can go catastrophically wrong if you time it wrong as the WR will finish the comeback route only to have your pass fly 40 yards downfield but the timing doesn't take all that long to figure out (although changing WR's mid game can lead to some issues if they don't have similar speeds). The comebacks really allow good route running WR's to shine this year. As long as you user catch them they are perfectly safe against even the best CB's. I just finished a game where I threw a grand total of 8 of them 5 to Nelson and 3 to Jennings (my opponent refused to leave 2 man under). He was the Eagles so it wasn't like his CB's were slouches.

[Broncos86]

You can't always apply actual football to Madden, for the simple fact that aspects that work in life do not work in Madden. That's because factors that exist in life don't exist in Madden. This fact has nothing to do with skill level of any kind. The reaction time of linebackers is not up for debate really. Elite athletes or not, in Madden and even NCAA, players are poor as 40 OVR react with lightning reflexes. There's a problem when a linebacker can react and swat down a ball that's been thrown 3 yards away from him and within UNDER one second he's able to cover those 3 yards and make a play on it. Not just get finger tips on it, I'm talking two palms.

When cornerbacks are capable of just stopping (no, not canceling momentum and beating a route, I mean just STOPPING) and turning around immediately to beat a curl route, there are issues. These are not subjective opinions. These are measurable and real. Last year, there was a thread about super linebackers being back, and I posted 4 videos that demonstrated how, in the NFL linebackers reacted to throws around them and over them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0Ydz...tailpage#t=67s

This is a great example. In Madden/NCAA, the LB picks that ball off or cleanly swats it down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0Ydz...tailpage#t=13s

That throw, over a LB, is nearly impossible in Madden.

I loved backtrack because I used it as the "oh BS!" tool. When I saw utter crap happen (like players phasing through each other), I backtracked it to cancel it out. It just drove me nuts to see it. Madden 09 REALLY needed it.