Why not get rid of potential?

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by Broncos86

@Thedelta, you might want to take a rest here. Nobody is calling you names, so there's no need to get defensive about it. That was kinda odd, actually. There are certain things that one has to concede in a video game. Players don't "learn" for example. As gamers, we sometimes have the "God" point of view. We see things and know things that typical coaches and GMs do not. That's just part of playing a video game. Whenever a gamer gets upset because a game doesn't immerse him isn't really interested in immersion. I used to immerse myself in my legos when I was 7 years old, but that was my doing, not the legos. Gamers who want immersion find it and apply it. Those who aren't really interested don't. If you're expecting a game to place immersion on you magically, you don't understand how immersion works. PGaither84's Skyrim example (I love Penny Arcade) is perfect. IMO, if you hide potential, then scouting needs to be much more involved. I don't want to track a kid through an entire season, knowing little more than ratings that don't apply to him, only to find out he's not that great.

Maybe I am misunderstanding this statement but the way I understand it, I completely disagree. The immersive features of video games should progress, just like graphics, AI, etc, as gaming systems become more powerful. I was satisfied with the immersive features in Tecmo Super Bowl in the 90's and NFL2k5 in 2004 because they seemed to utilize the potential in their generation of consoles on par with the other games of that era.

Now in 2012, I am still satisfied with the immersive features of games like NBA2k12 and Skyrim as well as reading others rave about the immersive features in many other PS3/360 sports games. However, Madden 12, on the exact same console(s), not only isn't providing immersive features on par with those games but it even has less immersive features than offered in past footballs games, including past Maddens, on weaker consoles.

I don't know about making people "upset" but that's very disappointing for me, since all I want is a NFL football game with immersion at least on par with other sports games, this generation of consoles. I don't agree with blaming people's personal level of imagination for them not being immersed in Madden 12, when that hasn't prevented them from being immersed in other next-gen games and specifically other sports games.

[jyoung]

Quote: Originally Posted by mpeterso

Not knowing what Suh's ratings were in your franchise I can't comment on the specifics other than to say maybe, just maybe that was his peak performance career season. 15 sacks in a season for a DT is all time great territory; it would be pretty hard for him to ever reach that level again. Regardless, there are dozens and dozens of examples of players regressing (sometimes a little, sometimes a lot) after having great seasons (Shaun Alexander 2005 to done by 2008, LT from 2006 to 2007, Randy Moss from 2007 to out of the league, by 2010 etc). The fact that the game can mimic this piece of reality is a good thing imo.

It was Suh's rookie season (Madden 11).

Doesn't make much since for a rookie who was the #2 overall pick in the draft to regress after putting up an All-Pro season statistically.

But hey, that's Madden progression for you.

[Broncos86]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

Maybe I am misunderstanding this statement but the way I understand it, I completely disagree. The immersive features of video games should progress, just like graphics, AI, etc, as gaming systems become more powerful. I was satisfied with the immersive features in Tecmo Super Bowl in the 90's and NFL2k5 in 2004 because they seemed to utilize the potential in their generation of consoles on par with the other games of that era.

You were satisfied with Tecmo Bowl because you were younger and had an imagination. Same goes for me. It's why kids can sit for hours and become engrossed with legos and building blocks.

As you get older and graphics become better, immersion becomes harder. When a game forces you to use your imagination, it's easy to accept everything as is. Now that consoles are inching closer to a more realistic game, and imagination isn't what it used to be, we're going to demand more and more to maintain a level of immersion. That's a very real aspect to gaming, age plays into it greatly. With video games, kids see mesmerizing worlds of wonder, adults see game mechanics, UI issues, and glitches.

When I play Madden and NCAA, I create storylines on my own and play them out. That really keeps me playing these games.

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by Broncos86

You were satisfied with Tecmo Bowl because you were younger and had an imagination. Same goes for me. It's why kids can sit for hours and become engrossed with legos and building blocks. As you get older and graphics become better, immersion becomes harder. When a game forces you to use your imagination, it's easy to accept everything as is. Now that consoles are inching closer to a more realistic game, and imagination isn't what it used to be, we're going to demand more and more to maintain a level of immersion. That's a very real aspect to gaming, age plays into it greatly. With video games, kids see mesmerizing worlds of wonder, adults see game mechanics, UI issues, and glitches. When I play Madden and NCAA, I create storylines on my own and play them out. That really keeps me playing these games.

I would argue that my imagination, in relation to video games, is far more expansive now than back then. The reason being, I didn't expect much from those games so I could accept them for what they offered, much like the legos you refer to.

However, after playing Tecmo Super Bowl, my imagination and expectation for what a video game could achieve, prevented me from finding the same immersion in regular Tecmo Bowl and likewise in relation to most new games and consoles.

Considering all the Madden wishlists and imaginative ideas that grown men post all over the internets, I don't think a lack of childhood imagination is responsible for people not finding next gen Madden more immersive.

[Broncos86]

If that were true, you'd be a very rare case because imagination declines as we age. This is a biological reality. As we age, imagination alone is less and less satisfactory, and we have to rely on other aspects of reality to achieve a level of satisfaction. Again, this is why a child can sit and play with simple legos for hours and an adult cannot. One study by Harvard U suggests that as we age, our memory declines and so too does our imagination with it. Other suggestions I've read and heard base the issue on our life experiences. As we age, we see and hear more and more. As we become accustomed to a greater level of input, our ability to imagine (and be happy with just imagination) declines. We need to see and feel the results, we are no longer content with creating those results in our minds.

Don't confuse brain-storming and generating ideas with a playful and vivid imagination. Those are not the same. One can be brilliant and full of advancing ideas, and yet not be able to use one's imagination to play. Try to sit down and do something you did as a child, using only your imagination. You'll find yourself completely uninterested and bored. It's just the nature of things, it's how we advance. Some people hold onto that imagination longer than others, but it does fade.

As aging gamers, we now are faced with wanting and needing more and more out of a video game to feel the same level of immersion. That doesn't mean that a game is necessarily less fun, but I know a lot of people who struggle staying interested in games because of this. They yearn more for that fantastical sense that they had when they were kids, and it isn't quite there anymore.

So I suppose I misspoke when I said gamers don't want to be immersed. That's not necessarily true. It's more about gamers who have trouble with immersion and the rising bar that is being set to obtain that immersion for those gamers. For others who still can use their imagination well, immersion is already found. There comes a day for many gamers where they look at a video game and all that it offers and they say "I just don't care." Games today have better graphics, better story, better dialogue, and more intriguing gameplay. And yet older gamers, on average, struggle to find those games as interesting as they did when they were children. That's not an indictment upon the video game, it's a reality of aging.

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by Broncos86

If that were true, you'd be a very rare case because imagination declines as we age. This is a biological reality. As we age, imagination alone is less and less satisfactory, and we have to rely on other aspects of reality to achieve a level of satisfaction. Again, this is why a child can sit and play with simple legos for hours and an adult cannot. One study by Harvard U suggests that as we age, our memory declines and so too does our imagination with it. Other suggestions I've read and heard base the issue on our life experiences. As we age, we see and hear more and more. As we become accustomed to a greater level of input, our ability to imagine (and be happy with just imagination) declines. We need to see and feel the results, we are no longer content with creating those results in our minds. Don't confuse brain-storming and generating ideas with a playful and vivid imagination. Those are not the same. One can be brilliant and full of advancing ideas, and yet not be able to use one's imagination to play. Try to sit down and do something you did as a child, using only your imagination. You'll find yourself completely uninterested and bored. It's just the nature of things, it's how we advance. Some people hold onto that imagination longer than others, but it does fade. As aging gamers, we now are faced with wanting and needing more and more out of a video game to feel the same level of immersion. That doesn't mean that a game is necessarily less fun, but I know a lot of people who struggle staying interested in games because of this. They yearn more for that fantastical sense that they had when they were kids, and it isn't quite there anymore. So I suppose I misspoke when I said gamers don't want to be immersed. That's not necessarily true. It's more about gamers who have trouble with immersion and the rising bar that is being set to obtain that immersion for those gamers. For others who still can use their imagination well, immersion is already found. There comes a day for many gamers where they look at a video game and all that it offers and they say "I just don't care." Games today have better graphics, better story, better dialogue, and more intriguing gameplay. And yet older gamers, on average, struggle to find those games as interesting as they did when they were children. That's not an indictment upon the video game, it's a reality of aging.

All that taken into consideration, you seem to be overlooking key points.

1) Madden 12 is marketed to grown men.

2) Those same grown men are able to become immersed in other current sports game.

So again, whatever the level of anyone's imagination at an older age, if it's not preventing them from being immersed in other sports games, it's unlikely to be the reason for them not finding immersion in Madden.

[Broncos86]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

All that taken into consideration, you seem to be overlooking key points. 1) Madden 12 is marketed to grown men. 2) Those same grown men are able to become immersed in other current sports game. So again, whatever the level of anyone's imagination at an older age, if it's not preventing them from being immersed in other sports games, it's unlikely to be the reason for them not finding immersion in Madden.

Okay, then let's talk about what some key differences in some of the games you mentioned. You mentioned Skyrim. Tell me what aspects of the game you find most compelling that allows you to transcend being a gamer and instead project yourself into the world of Skyrim. What is it that allows you to forget that you're a gamer and believe that you are instead actually in the world of Skyrim? Or, NBA2K12. And what would Madden need to do to allow you to blur out the monitor and instead allow you to become engrossed in the league you're playing?

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by Broncos86

Okay, then let's talk about what some key differences in some of the games you mentioned. You mentioned Skyrim. Tell me what aspects of the game you find most compelling that allows you to transcend being a gamer and instead project yourself into the world of Skyrim. What is it that allows you to forget that you're a gamer and believe that you are instead actually in the world of Skyrim? Or, NBA2K12. And what would Madden need to do to allow you to blur out the monitor and instead allow you to become engrossed in the league you're playing?

Well kind sir, that's what I have been posting about for the last 7 months or so, for the majority of my time on OS. LOL

So I really don't know if I can compress that into simple response but I will try.

I want applicable NFL risk/reward represented in Madden to offer me an immersive overall challenge, like I find in NBA2k12 and Skyrim. Of course everything in those games is not perfect but the things they get right provide a challenge that immerses me in such a way that I overlook the flaws. For me, this is not the case in Madden and I often feel like I am playing a game with an inherent "watered down" challenge, that insults basic NFL knowledge.