Why not get rid of potential?

[Broncos86]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

Well kind sir, that's what I have been posting about for the last 7 months or so, for the majority of my time on OS. LOL So I really don't know if I can compress that into simple response but I will try. I want applicable NFL risk/reward represented in Madden to offer me an immersive overall challenge, like I find in NBA2k12 and Skyrim. Of course everything in those games is not perfect but the things they get right provide a challenge that immerses me in such a way that I overlook the flaws. For me, this is not the case in Madden and I often feel like I am playing a game with an inherent "watered down" challenge, that insults basic NFL knowledge.

So you're talking about the challenge of gameplay, then? So Skyrim immerses you in the world by making the gameplay challenging?

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by Broncos86

So you're talking about the challenge of gameplay, then? So Skyrim immerses you in the world by making the gameplay challenging?

Not just gameplay though, that's why I stated "overall" challenge. There is only so much realism that can be achieved solely in a video games gameplay, due to programming limitations and unavoidable bugs. However, that's why the other applicable variables, like the challenge of working with AI characters, making decisions on what/who to keep, acquire or let go and relative problem solving outside of gameplay, are so important to immersion.

It's those things, combined with legacy gameplay issues, I find most NFL immersion hindering about Madden.

[PGaither84]

I am interested in what Big FN Deal and Broncos86 are talking about, so I wanted to throw in my own 2 cents.

First, while I don't have a huge collection of games, I do have a lot that I enjoy playing.

Mass Effect: Beautiful, fun game play, and a great story. A stand alone game that doesn't need a squeal, but I'm glad they decided to continue the epic adventure.

Mass Effect 2: Well, it's just what you would expect from a ME squeal. I am looking forward to ME3 coming next month.

Dragon Age Origins: It's the high fantasy version of Mass Effect in a way.

The Elder Scrolls IV Oblivion: A different kind of high fantasy RPG. While not my favorite, it is a lot of fun. I am more of a sci fi fan though, so I prefer Fallout 3 and New Vegas more.

Fallout 3: I LOVE this game. LOVE IT! There is still so much that I haven't done yet and explored yet. I really need to go back and play it more.

Fallout New Vegas: While the game play is better than FO3, I found the setting and things to do in FO3 more fun. However, New Vegas is still a great game once the bugs were patched.

IL 2 Sturmovik: I love flying games and the WWII setting. WWII dog fights are far more interesting to me than the jet age.

L.A. Noire: I haven't finished this game yet, and I really should... but I have been side tracked. Those faces... OMG have you seen those faces? Not the most intense game, but it's a ton of fun. Very original and entertaining.

MW2: [Warning bad language in the video] Because I had a group of friends to play Team Death Match with, this was a LOT of fun to play online. Also, I had a TON of fun trolling the other team in the lobby. While that video wasn't me, I did that kind of stuff all the time.

Bad Company 2: Another really fun online shooter. I found it more fun than MW2. I love team based games, and the Battlefield series is all about team work.

Battle Field 3: More Battlefield.

AND... I haven't even touched sports games.

Second, what do I want from Madden? I want football to be better represented before and after the snap of the ball. While game play is improving, it is still far behind "that other game." The visual presentation looks really nice, but the audio is terrible. I want more emotion in the game, and I don't mean just have Gus Johnson scream more. I want that last second TD or FG to take the lead to have a lot more emotion than the one that was scored in the 1st quarter.

In Madden 11 at least, Gus Johnson is more excited about a 2 yard run and when a team starts the drive "on the sevenTEEEEN!!!"

How about a half time show? That was not very good in Madden 10 and then was removed. How about a weekly rap up show? Where is the EA radio show with Tony Bruno? Where are the national and local news papers? Please, give me back my mad lib news papers and weekly match ups.

Get me interested in the league. Keep me interested. Give me story lines and not just 17 weeks of exhibition games. Get me interested in the game I am playing and keep me interested. Making winning feel good and losing not feel like the AI had to cheat.

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by Broncos86

If that were true, you'd be a very rare case because imagination declines as we age. This is a biological reality. As we age, imagination alone is less and less satisfactory, and we have to rely on other aspects of reality to achieve a level of satisfaction. Again, this is why a child can sit and play with simple legos for hours and an adult cannot.

I don't buy that it's an automatic reality. If so, then I guess all composers and musicians and artists and all truly creative professions are all populated by children? No adults? Wait...no that's not the case.

Imagination and creativity, imo, is like any skill. Use it, hone it, or lose it.

For me, the difference with the legos is time, not imagination. I work 10-14 hrs a day and have other responsibilities I didn't have when I was 7. I frequently don't have much time to sit down for 2 hours to do much of anything, imagination or otherwise.

Quote: Originally Posted by Broncos86

For others who still can use their imagination well, immersion is already found. There comes a day for many gamers where they look at a video game and all that it offers and they say "I just don't care." Games today have better graphics, better story, better dialogue, and more intriguing gameplay. And yet older gamers, on average, struggle to find those games as interesting as they did when they were children. That's not an indictment upon the video game, it's a reality of aging.

My problems with Madden have little to do with the fact I'm 34 instead 14.

They have to do with the fact the game doesn't play football correctly. I don't need imagination to see that the 3-4 is wrong, that players shouldn't be able to phase through others to make plays, or that there's too little route-based passing concepts, etc. in the game.

I'm more than capable of imagining why my electronic player won't sign with my team. I'm capable of coming of with "story reasons" for doing stuff in my 32-team franchises that does not exist at all in the game, and so on.

Heck, I can even play a multiplayer game myself by imagining different play-styles and playing as if that person is playing against me - except...I'm only one at the board/computer, etc.

So no, it's not imagination that has me less than perfectly satisfied with Madden. It's the fact that my imagination is the only recourse I have for getting the level of challenge and depth I want out of franchise mode along with the basic football errors in the game.

[PGaither84]

How could I forget Portal and Bio Shock?

[Broncos86]

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

I don't buy that it's an automatic reality. If so, then I guess all composers and musicians and artists and all truly creative professions are all populated by children? No adults? Wait...no that's not the case.

You're confusing the issue between creativity and an immersive imagination for the sake of entertainment. I thought I already covered this? Having a creative mind does not inherently conclude that one can entertain oneself with imaginative abstractions. And for the sake of it, music and mathematics are closely connected. Many composers have a mathematically-tuned mind. But I'm digressing.