Madden vs Real Football

[TNT713]

Simply put - I'll answer all the questions with one answer:

Madden players don't get fired.

The guy making the decision to go for it on every 4th down regardless of field position isn't going to get FIRED and neither is the guy that gives up the 4th and 36 when the offense is in the shadow of it's own goal posts.

NOBODY GETS FIRED.

The guy scrambling with his QB every down won't get FIRED when the tactic doesn't work nor will the player who doesn't adjust to a scrambling QB and gets torched for 150 QB rushing yards.

NOBODY GETS FIRED...

The guy that onside kicks doesn't get fired for giving opponents fantastic field position nor will the guy that keeps coming out in a regular return after several onside kicks.

NOBODY GETS FIRED!

The guy that runs no-huddle every series doesn't get fired when his tactic is fruitless nor will the opponent who doesn't make use of the 20+ potential audibles and plethora of adjustments at the line of scrimmage.

NOBODY GETS FIRED!!!

The player that always fields the punt won't get fired anymore than the guy that keeps kicking to Devin Hester.

I think we can see a theme here... Until Madden has Real Football consequences for making horrible decisions - people will continue to make horrible decisions simply because there is no consequence beyond the specific play.

FIRING PLAYERS is the Real Football 'fix' for people making poor decisions.

Later

[Soprano00]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

NOBODY GETS FIRED.

I think I got your point

But maybe you didn't get mine: some decisions that are horrible in real football aren't in Madden, regadless of being fired or not. There's a (sometimes huge) gap in success probability of certain plays between Madden and RF, and would be nice to have the gap filled. In other words, knowing real world football strategies, plays, playbooks and whatever in many cases doesn't help because we play Madden vision of football and not what we may call a simulation.

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by Soprano00

I think I got your point But maybe you didn't get mine: some decisions that are horrible in real football aren't in Madden, regadless of being fired or not. There's a (sometimes huge) gap in success probability of certain plays between Madden and RF, and would be nice to have the gap filled. In other words, knowing real world football strategies, plays, playbooks and whatever in many cases doesn't help because we play Madden vision of football and not what we may call a simulation.

Soprano00,

I'm sure your vaguely familiar with my stance regarding simulation - if not I'll share here:

There is no such thing as simulation when there are no real-world consequences. IRL, everyone on the field works really hard to make the team, to earn play time, and to perform on the field. Failure means losing a starting position, riding the pine, or getting cut.

Likewise, there is no such thing as simulation if the decisions available IRL are not available to Madden players. Being able to make poor decisions is as essential to a simulation as making great decisions.

Furthermore, there is no simulation without taking the execution of the decision into account. If an offense goes for it and converts on 4th and a mile it's usually due to bad defense - not good offense. A good offense wouldn't be in a 4th and a mile situation.

But when you have 1800 real NFL players that have all earned the right to wear their team's uniform and contrast that with the 5-million people who only need to pony up $60 - you can't have a simulation that resembles real life.

Users, by and large, are the biggest draw and hindrance to the quality of the Madden simulation.

Imagine for a moment an NFL where any fool could play. You'd get idiot play that makes 4th and a mile a logical decision. You'd have quarterbacks that cant throw spirals. You'd have receiver's that can't catch, defenders that can't tackle, linemen that can't block, etc...

So you tell me - how do you simulate the risk/rewards of real life football when the people playing the game don't simulate any of the hard work and effort that mirrors the NFL?

Simply put - you can't. Not unless the players involved put forth the same level of effort. If Player A meets Player B in a match and both are equally serious - the resulting game will be more analogous with what we deem simulation than if Player A worked hard and Player B did not.

In essence, the quality of the simulation relies heavily on the quality of the players. But since no one gets FIRED - there's nothing to ensure the players are quality players like in the NFL.

Later

[Big FN Deal]

@TNT, your posts are like OS catnip for me sometimes because I feel so compelled to reply to them. lol

Being fired is a consequence of the results of decisions made in the NFL, not a direct action of the decisions made being inherently good or bad. NFL decisions are deemed good or bad based on whether they are successful or not. Considering that fact, Madden does not have to simulate Users being fired or directly limit what Users choose to do, it just needs to represent the NFL parameters for their decisions which inherently dictate their results.

So OP, what Madden is missing is applicable NFL risk/reward to regulate what Users decide to do. I am such a "broken record" on this topic I will just quote my post from another thread in response.

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

If Madden focused on representing the applicable real life parameters of NFL football as accurately as possible, like penalties, injuries, fatigue, play design assignments/responsibility, timing, mental/physical/skill/social player limitations, physics, coaching, environmental effects and player to player interaction, everything else would fall into place to simulate a NFL football experience and challenge. EDIT* Forgot aging and wear-n-tear for Career modes.

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

@TNT, your posts are like OS catnip for me sometimes because I feel so compelled to reply to them. lol Being fired is a consequence of the results of decisions made in the NFL, not a direct action of the decisions made being inherently good or bad. NFL decisions are deemed good or bad based on whether they are successful or not. Considering that fact, Madden does not have to simulate Users being fired or directly limit what Users choose to do, it just needs to represent the NFL parameters for their decisions which inherently dictate their results. So OP, what Madden is missing is applicable NFL risk/reward to regulate what Users decide to do. I am such a "broken record" on this topic I will just quote my post from another thread in response.

Can we talk risk/reward of the NFL without talking about people getting fired?

Getting benched, cut, and/or fired is an essential NFL parameter to simulating the risk/reward values that so many hold dear. IMO, it is the MOST IMPORTANT NFL PARAMETER.

Can't have NFL parameters without talking about the skill level of players that would ultimately have them being benched, cut, or fired. Until Madden players risk being booted from the league - any discussion about risk/reward is skewed and incomplete.

Later

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

So you tell me - how do you simulate the risk/rewards of real life football when the people playing the game don't simulate any of the hard work and effort that mirrors the NFL?

How about the PLAYS themselves have the proper risk-reward?

I don't think that's unreasonable to ask for.

Player injuries, fatigue weakening players as the game goes on, plays hard to convert in real life being hard to convert for realistic reasons (like onside kicks), etc.

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

How about the PLAYS themselves have the proper risk-reward? I don't think that's unreasonable to ask for.

Oddly, they practice plays in the NFL to improve the risk/reward factor. Plays that don't work in practice, typically don't get called in a game.

Later

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

Oddly, they practice plays in the NFL to improve the risk/reward factor. Plays that don't work in practice, typically don't get called in a game.

And is that reflected in Madden?

No. It was in Head Coach, not in Madden. It was also in NFL 2k5 (Weekly Prep). It was also abstracted in Football Pro (hidden modifier to team effectiveness). But there is no such thing in Madden. I just created a playbook in my franchise - players ran it like they've been doing it all their lives.

Plus, that's not the point I was making. What I was talking about was stuff like onside kicks working way too often, etc.

Even with all the practice and such, plays have a certain % of working. That percentage is rarely 100%, if ever. Yet in Madden, you can make it 100% (or sometimes unable to improve the % because you don't have as much control as you need in areas of the game, especially OL play/blocking/protection schemes or whatever other limitations that arise from the antiquated play calling/lack of play creation).