Madden vs Real Football

[Soprano00]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

There is no such thing as simulation when there are no real-world consequences. A good offense wouldn't be in a 4th and a mile situation.

Thanks for the very detailed response. You're talking about "good offense". What means having a good offense in Madden ? Mirroring similar strategic decisions which would be made IRL, or rather mastering a few gymnics and taking advantage of the game faults ? Which percentage of the two ?

In your example of an offense being on 4th (or 3rd) and a mile, a deep coverage would be a good strategic decision for the defense, both in NFL and Madden. In such case real life and simulation good decisions matches. Unfortunately this doesn't happen for all the plays, and there's where EA has to work for the next years gameplay, imho.

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

And is that reflected in Madden? No. It was in Head Coach, not in Madden. It was also in NFL 2k5 (Weekly Prep). It was also abstracted in Football Pro (hidden modifier to team effectiveness). But there is no such thing in Madden. I just created a playbook in my franchise - players ran it like they've been doing it all their lives. Plus, that's not the point I was making. What I was talking about was stuff like onside kicks working way too often, etc. Even with all the practice and such, plays have a certain % of working. That percentage is rarely 100%, if ever. Yet in Madden, you can make it 100% (or sometimes unable to improve the % because you don't have as much control as you need in areas of the game, especially OL play/blocking/protection schemes or whatever other limitations that arise from the antiquated play calling/lack of play creation).

C'mon Man... No benefit to practice? Spoken like someone who doesn't practice OR spends his practice time working on the wrong things. With all due respect, there are no 100% effective plays in Madden and we (educated Madden players) should not imply that there are 100% effective plays on Madden. There are far too many impressionable minds who might actually believe that misstatement and begin looking in vain for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

To imply there's no benefit to practice is like a slap in the face to anyone that had benefited from practice and defiles anyone that can testify to the value of practice. Needless to say I haven't personally increased my winning percentage by 40 points because of gimmicks and magic tricks. It was dedication and hard work at controlling what I can control. It was even HARDER to ignore the multitude of naysayers who cling to the ideals espoused in this thread and others that say what I wouldn't be able to do...

Furthermore, the lack of a play creator doesn't mean we can't create plays. Madden's play creator, on both sides of the ball, exists in the pre-snap interface. Not only can you adjust all 11 players on defense (defensive playmaker), but you can adjust 11 on offense too (Slide protect & hot routes). Between the one player we directly control and the 10 we control indirectly - there is no justification for the premise that players don't have control.

Practice helps players utilize the pre-play creation tools... It also helps players get the most post-snap production as well. Alas, it takes a ton of practice to be a legitimate simulation player in a football simulation.

We shouldn't get any sort of boost on 4th down that we don't also receive on 1st down. Other games that used artificial means to reduce the effectiveness of unpopular, irrational, or silly football decisions were just that - ARTIFICIAL.

I'm not sure about you, but I don't need the CPU's help to accomplish my goals of beating my opponent. I only need to be aware of how and why my players will perform in the myriad of situations I'm faced with during a game.

Only practice can provide those insights and improve the decisions that even the odds NATURALLY.

Later

[ANDROMADA 1]

Quote: Originally Posted by Soprano00

We all know plays abused by cheesers and unfair gamers in Madden. Question is why those plays are a good choice in Madden and not in Real Football ? I'm talking about: A) Going for it on 4th down instead of punting. Why is in Madden almost always convenient to do it ? B) Online kicks. Why everybody does it in Madden while is quite rare to see it in RF ? C) QB scrambles. Same questions. D) No huddle all the time. Same questions. E) Punt return. Practically everybody goes for the fair catch. What shall EA do in the next Madden release to fix these issues ? Shall EA enforce a "sim" mode that disallow those practices except for the 4th quarter ?

In response to E. I fair catch everything. I wouldn't have to if the programming wasn't so bad. I got tired of zero blocking, fumbles with every hit stick, the gunner running into my players fair catch zone but not being flagged, and my favorite....pushing the button to fair catch only to have my player stand there like a bump on a log to only get demolished by the kick coverage and the opponnent gets a cheap fumble TD. Yup, thats why I do it.

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by Soprano00

Thanks for the very detailed response. You're talking about "good offense". What means having a good offense in Madden ? Mirroring similar strategic decisions which would be made IRL, or rather mastering a few gymnics and taking advantage of the game faults ? Which percentage of the two ? In your example of an offense being on 4th (or 3rd) and a mile, a deep coverage would be a good strategic decision for the defense, both in NFL and Madden. In such case real life and simulation good decisions matches. Unfortunately this doesn't happen for all the plays, and there's where EA has to work for the next years gameplay, imho.

Needless to say, this ain't my first rodeo. Been having this very argument for almost 10 years.

And the proper call doesn't always result in the proper execution of said call. How many times have we seen an NFL team make the right play call against a look that should have worked - but didn't? Purely rhetorical, because I stopped counting years ago.

There's a limit to the X's and O's because chalkboards aren't the playing field. I've seen catches in double and triple coverage when everyone in the stadium knew who was getting the ball. I've also seen teams call their last timeout 0:20 before a half only to call a draw play that went for a score...

Folks that feel a play should work based solely on the X's and O's are often left scratching their heads because conventional wisdom isn't always conventional.

Later

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

Can we talk risk/reward of the NFL without talking about people getting fired? Getting benched, cut, and/or fired is an essential NFL parameter to simulating the risk/reward values that so many hold dear. IMO, it is the MOST IMPORTANT NFL PARAMETER. Can't have NFL parameters without talking about the skill level of players that would ultimately have them being benched, cut, or fired. Until Madden players risk being booted from the league - any discussion about risk/reward is skewed and incomplete. Later

Methinks you take this a little too seriously, lol.

I see your point though. Nothing can ever truly approximate the risks of the decision, but OTOH it doesn't approximate the rewards either. Sure I don't GET FIRED if I go for it on 4th and fail, but I also don't get a half million dollars if I succeed and win the game.

But really, who would voluntarily play a simulation that could approximate those stakes? I certainly wouldn't buy a football game if the penalty for playing it badly was to take a 280lb helmeted missile to the ribs. So, I think we should acknowledge some of the inherent limitations to any video game representation of bigtime sports and figure out how to work around them.

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

Can we talk risk/reward of the NFL without talking about people getting fired? Getting benched, cut, and/or fired is an essential NFL parameter to simulating the risk/reward values that so many hold dear. IMO, it is the MOST IMPORTANT NFL PARAMETER. Can't have NFL parameters without talking about the skill level of players that would ultimately have them being benched, cut, or fired. Until Madden players risk being booted from the league - any discussion about risk/reward is skewed and incomplete. Later

Absolutely! lol. That's exactly what I have been doing on OS since I joined.

I repeat, getting fired, cut, demoted or whatever in the NFL is USUALLY due to production/results, not some arbitrary opinion on what decisions where good or bad. Steve Spurrier tried to bring Fun n Gun to the NFL and my beloved Redskins but eventually quit because it wasn't successful in the NFL. Had it been successful, Spurrier presumably would have continued to enjoy NFL job security until today.

If Madden represents the NFL parameters that lead to the failure of Fun n Gun like the QB taking so many hits he stays injured and paranoid, signing fast lower talented RBs with poor NFL production being unable to establish a ground game, low talent WR familiar with the system being unable to get open and coach ratings denoting which ones have poor team work ethic, then having virtually Spurrier/User actually be fired, isn't necessary. Their lack of success will make them as NFL ineffective, irrelevant and non f'n factors, as NFL unemployment would.

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

Absolutely! lol. That's exactly what I have been doing on OS since I joined. I repeat, getting fired, cut, demoted or whatever in the NFL is USUALLY due to production/results, not some arbitrary opinion on what decisions where good or bad. Steve Spurrier tried to bring Fun n Gun to the NFL and my beloved Redskins but eventually quit because it wasn't successful in the NFL. Had it been successful, Spurrier presumably would have continued to enjoy NFL job security until today. If Madden represents the NFL parameters that lead to the failure of Fun n Gun like the QB taking so many hits he stays injured and paranoid, signing fast lower talented RBs with poor NFL production being unable to establish a ground game, low talent WR familiar with the system being unable to get open and coach ratings denoting which ones have poor team work ethic, then having virtually Spurrier/User actually be fired, isn't necessary. Their lack of success will make them as NFL ineffective, irrelevant and non f'n factors, as NFL unemployment would.

Let's assume your Steve Spurrier clone meets someone who knows how to handle the gimmick "Fun-N-Gun" like NFL coaches do... his offense would be ineffective.

I'm sure you remember that time Spurrier came out in an A11 with the punter at QB on 4th and 2? His opponents called timeout - same as I would. However Spurrier went with the same plan after the stoppage, failed, and set the A11 (still in its infancy) back two decades. We won't see another A11 offensive play til 2020. LOL

Fact is, Spurrier was a gimmick coach in much the same way that Madden players use silly gimmicks. His gimmicks didn't work and he got fired. But don't forget, the Redskins have been borderline horrible ever since Daniel Snyder bought the team because he 'owns' like a player building a team in Franchise mode. That said, Spurrier might have enjoyed success if he'd been going against coaches and players in the NFL with the same work ethic as Madden players.

Unfortunately for Spurrier, guys in the NFL watch film and get fired when they don't perform. When they perform, the gimmick coach gets FIRED instead. I look forward to the day when Madden players get FIRED.

Alas, a stupid decision that works might still get a coach fired. But stupid decisions that don't work certainly will.

Later

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

Let's assume your Steve Spurrier clone meets someone who knows how to handle the gimmick "Fun-N-Gun" like NFL coaches do... his offense would be ineffective. I'm sure you remember that time Spurrier came out in an A11 with the punter at QB on 4th and 2? His opponents called timeout - same as I would. However Spurrier went with the same plan after the stoppage, failed, and set the A11 (still in its infancy) back two decades. We won't see another A11 offensive play til 2020. LOL Fact is, Spurrier was a gimmick coach in much the same way that Madden players use silly gimmicks. His gimmicks didn't work and he got fired. But don't forget, the Redskins have been borderline horrible ever since Daniel Snyder bought the team because he 'owns' like a player building a team in Franchise mode. That said, Spurrier might have enjoyed success if he'd been going against coaches and players in the NFL with the same work ethic as Madden players. Unfortunately for Spurrier, guys in the NFL watch film and get fired when they don't perform. When they perform, the gimmick coach gets FIRED instead. I look forward to the day when Madden players get FIRED. Alas, a stupid decision that works might still get a coach fired. But stupid decisions that don't work certainly will. Later

The underline portion is the crux of it though TNT, without applicable NFL parameters represented in the Madden program, there can be no simulating what the NFL coaches do.

Real NFL coaches were able to stop what Spurrier tried because of simple factors like injury, penalties, spacing, player limitations and physics, all of which are poorly represented in Madden.

It's funny you brought up Daniel Snyder because that just furthers my point about in Madden, his type of approach would lead to a Super Bowl every year, as opposed to how it has worked out for my Redskins in the real NFL.

Also that comment, "But don't forget, the Redskins have been borderline horrible", I didn't appreciate one bit so you better believe the 2nd year Cam lead Panthers are on my hit list for M13!