interception: how much is user fault ?

[MiNiDiTkA]

In my case its probably 100 % my fault

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

Even so... If the devs 'fix' the phase thru interceptions (and they should) users that don't make the proper football play will still be making poor football plays.

This stuff can happen even when making the right reads, because you can't always trust what you see (the defender could always clip/phase/warp through anyone at any time).

Which is why people want this stuff fixed. That way the right read is the right read and won't get messed up from EA "stuff". It's one thing if I try to fit a ball in tight spaces with a QB like Josh Johnson or Tyrod Taylor. I'm just asking for trouble, warping/phasing/clipping or no, but when I pull back on the L-stick to throw a comeback or curl with the CB over the top and no one underneath, and the CB still clips through my WR to defend the pass - yeah, I don't take blame for that.

I identified the single coverage. I identified where the defender was. The route was such that the defender is out of position. I delivered ball to lead the WR to open space (used the L-Stick and the right touch). And it got broken up - not by anticipation, not by being in the right position, not by the QB's THA/AWR being insufficient, but by clipping through my man.

Yes. I blame EA for that.

My focus isn't on people who make the wrong play. Like you said, people can learn how to make better reads, and that becomes more rewarding (and easier to an extent) when stuff like this is out.

My concern is when people make the RIGHT reads and execute properly - and this stuff still "steals" a good play away.

[Jarodd21]

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

This stuff can happen even when making the right reads, because you can't always trust what you see (the defender could always clip/phase/warp through anyone at any time). Which is why people want this stuff fixed. That way the right read is the right read and won't get messed up from EA "stuff". It's one thing if I try to fit a ball in tight spaces with a QB like Josh Johnson or Tyrod Taylor. I'm just asking for trouble, warping/phasing/clipping or no, but when I pull back on the L-stick to throw a comeback or curl with the CB over the top and no one underneath, and the CB still clips through my WR to defend the pass - yeah, I don't take blame for that. I identified the single coverage. I identified where the defender was. The route was such that the defender is out of position. I delivered ball to lead the WR to open space (used the L-Stick and the right touch). And it got broken up - not by anticipation, not by being in the right position, not by the QB's THA/AWR being insufficient, but by clipping through my man. Yes. I blame EA for that. My focus isn't on people who make the wrong play. Like you said, people can learn how to make better reads, and that becomes more rewarding (and easier to an extent) when stuff like this is out. My concern is when people make the RIGHT reads and execute properly - and this stuff still "steals" a good play away.

Yeah I can't blame the USER for those see through INTs that occur once in a while when you make a good throw like that against single coverage where your WR beat his man coming back to the ball. That is part of that 10 percent blame I give to the game but most of the INTs that occur are definitely the USERs fault IMO..

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

This stuff can happen even when making the right reads, because you can't always trust what you see (the defender could always clip/phase/warp through anyone at any time). Which is why people want this stuff fixed. That way the right read is the right read and won't get messed up from EA "stuff". It's one thing if I try to fit a ball in tight spaces with a QB like Josh Johnson or Tyrod Taylor. I'm just asking for trouble, warping/phasing/clipping or no, but when I pull back on the L-stick to throw a comeback or curl with the CB over the top and no one underneath, and the CB still clips through my WR to defend the pass - yeah, I don't take blame for that. I identified the single coverage. I identified where the defender was. The route was such that the defender is out of position. I delivered ball to lead the WR to open space (used the L-Stick and the right touch). And it got broken up - not by anticipation, not by being in the right position, not by the QB's THA/AWR being insufficient, but by clipping through my man. Yes. I blame EA for that. My focus isn't on people who make the wrong play. Like you said, people can learn how to make better reads, and that becomes more rewarding (and easier to an extent) when stuff like this is out. My concern is when people make the RIGHT reads and execute properly - and this stuff still "steals" a good play away.

I think we are in complete agreement regarding the clipping issue (dev talk) that we typically see called phasing/warping (user talk). EA needs to fix it so that there are never any clipping issues...

Oddly, I see your above description of the execution to be one step short of what I'd consider proper. You described making the right coverage read and making the right throw - but stopping there will only be part of the execution. You also should take control of the receiver and make the catch. Anything less is - well - not enough.

Let's be clear - when the user switches to the receiver and allowing the CPU to execute by neglecting to move the stick or press a button leaves the user vulnerable to clipping issues that are clearly present in the programming...

Switching to the receiver and actually assuming control of his actions completely changes the chances of having a clipping issue. When the user is actually controlling the receiver, defenders can't phase/warp thru the receiver and the user can wall off the defender so there's no clipping. Clipping doesn't happen when the user is controlling the receiver. Receivers under User control are solid and can shield the defender so he can't make a play on the ball...

Furthermore, using Instant Replay to watch slow-motion replays of on field plays are misleading. The game itself running at full speed uses 60 frames per second. When the replay is shown, it should also be played at full speed to determine whether there was actually a clipping issue, otherwise the system will interpolate by adding frames that didn't actually occur during the actual game play. During those interpolated frames, kooky things are often inserted between the frames that actually occurred during game play...

Played full speed, some replays may look great. Slow them down and have the system interpolate and you may see a ball clip thru a player, spin in the air before making contact with a surface, players body parts may clip thru other players, etc... Not because it happened during the play, but because the replay system estimates additional frames between the actual frames.

In essence, folks that use interpolated frames to show clipping are doing a disservice... That said, sometimes - clipping actually occurs within the 60 fps during real speed games. Most of the time, the clipping that happens during the slowed down replay is the result of interpolation stretching 60 fps into 300 fps (for example) and filling in frames moreso than an actual in-game flaw.

Later

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

I think we are in complete agreement regarding the clipping issue (dev talk) that we typically see called phasing/warping (user talk). EA needs to fix it so that there are never any clipping issues... Oddly, I see your above description of the execution to be one step short of what I'd consider proper. You described making the right coverage read and making the right throw - but stopping there will only be part of the execution. You also should take control of the receiver and make the catch. Anything less is - well - not enough. Let's be clear - when the user switches to the receiver and allowing the CPU to execute by neglecting to move the stick or press a button leaves the user vulnerable to clipping issues that are clearly present in the programming... Switching to the receiver and actually assuming control of his actions completely changes the chances of having a clipping issue. When the user is actually controlling the receiver, defenders can't phase/warp thru the receiver and the user can wall off the defender so there's no clipping. Clipping doesn't happen when the user is controlling the receiver. Receivers under User control are solid and can shield the defender so he can't make a play on the ball... Furthermore, using Instant Replay to watch slow-motion replays of on field plays are misleading. The game itself running at full speed uses 60 frames per second. When the replay is shown, it should also be played at full speed to determine whether there was actually a clipping issue, otherwise the system will interpolate by adding frames that didn't actually occur during the actual game play. During those interpolated frames, kooky things are often inserted between the frames that actually occurred during game play... Played full speed, some replays may look great. Slow them down and have the system interpolate and you may see a ball clip thru a player, spin in the air before making contact with a surface, players body parts may clip thru other players, etc... Not because it happened during the play, but because the replay system estimates additional frames between the actual frames. In essence, folks that use interpolated frames to show clipping are doing a disservice... That said, sometimes - clipping actually occurs within the 60 fps during real speed games. Most of the time, the clipping that happens during the slowed down replay is the result of interpolation stretching 60 fps into 300 fps (for example) and filling in frames moreso than an actual in-game flaw. Later

My question about this is, if not by slowing it down in instant replay, how can anyone tell the difference between interpolation and actual clipping?

I would presume people that record their games with alternate recording devices other than the replay system in Madden, shouldn't have that interpolation issue you are referring to, right?

So if that is true, have you ever seen or yourself recorded an instance where an alternate recording device showed clipping did not occur but instant replay in Madden made it appear it did, in the same play?

[Cardot]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

I think either me or you are over complicating what I am trying to say. I think there are far too many INTs in Madden, regardless of User decisions. I believe there should be far more incompletions and penalties than there currently are but in Madden most of those results seem to be replaced by INTs and catches. There is not enough mundane, routine NFL nuance in Madden, it's big plays with occasional NFL routine moments mixed in.

I agree. And this is obviously a design decision not likely to change any time soon.

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

[1]My question about this is, if not by slowing it down in instant replay, how can anyone tell the difference between interpolation and actual clipping? [2]I would presume people that record their games with alternate recording devices other than the replay system in Madden, shouldn't have that interpolation issue you are referring to, right? [3]So if that is true, have you ever seen or yourself recorded an instance where an alternate recording device showed clipping did not occur but instant replay in Madden made it appear it did, in the same play?

Good questions!

When you slow down the action in the Instant Replay there is no way to tell which frames are 'key' frames and which are interpolated.

There's no difference in recording with an alternate device than with a separate camera or giving it the eyeball test. Either way, you're seeing/recording whatever is displayed full frame or interpolation.

You can use Instant Replay to isolate players and action from any angle which makes it ideal to determine whether clipping happens with the caveat being, that you must play the action at full speed to eliminate interpolation as the reason for the clipping...

I have witnessed action where clipping was present in both full speed AND interpolated frames. But I have witnessed several more occasions where I have witnessed interpolated frames that generated clipping where full speed video did not exhibit the same behavior.

If you'd like to see an illustration - throw a pass that is caught by either the receiver or defender...

In Instant Replay, focus the camera on the ball and play the footage right up until the ball is caught. Play the footage as slowly as you possibly can both backward and forward while keeping your eye on the ball. You may see the ball do something unnatural immediately before being caught in the interpolated frame just before the ball is contacted. Replay the same footage at full speed - and no such unnatural movement occurs...

The unnatural movement is the result of interpolated frames being inserted in the replay to account for the difference between the 60 fps full speed being slowed down so that the same 60 frames constituting a "full speed second" are stretched to 300+ frames to account for the same period of game time.

It's necessary to understand that Instant Replay and actual game footage are both displayed at 60 frames per second. The difference is that one second of regular game speed in slo-mo takes 2 to 5 seconds. Meaning you might get anywhere from 60 frames to 300 frames to represent the same amount of actual game speed...

So whenever you see someone breaking down Madden in Instant Replay at super slow motion - understand that most of the frames you're seeing at those slow speeds never actually happen during the game. Clipping at slower speeds isn't necessarily clipping at full speed...

But no one can tell which frames are REAL and which ones are interpolated. All we can be sure of is that anything that is slower than full speed is partially interpolated and cannot be trusted to be a representation of what actually happened in the game.

Later

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

Good questions! When you slow down the action in the Instant Replay there is no way to tell which frames are 'key' frames and which are interpolated. There's no difference in recording with an alternate device than with a separate camera or giving it the eyeball test. Either way, you're seeing/recording whatever is displayed full frame or interpolation. You can use Instant Replay to isolate players and action from any angle which makes it ideal to determine whether clipping happens with the caveat being, that you must play the action at full speed to eliminate interpolation as the reason for the clipping... I have witnessed action where clipping was present in both full speed AND interpolated frames. But I have witnessed several more occasions where I have witnessed interpolated frames that generated clipping where full speed video did not exhibit the same behavior. If you'd like to see an illustration - throw a pass that is caught by either the receiver or defender... In Instant Replay, focus the camera on the ball and play the footage right up until the ball is caught. Play the footage as slowly as you possibly can both backward and forward while keeping your eye on the ball. You may see the ball do something unnatural immediately before being caught in the interpolated frame just before the ball is contacted. Replay the same footage at full speed - and no such unnatural movement occurs... The unnatural movement is the result of interpolated frames being inserted in the replay to account for the difference between the 60 fps full speed being slowed down so that the same 60 frames constituting a "full speed second" are stretched to 300+ frames to account for the same period of game time. It's necessary to understand that Instant Replay and actual game footage are both displayed at 60 frames per second. The difference is that one second of regular game speed in slo-mo takes 2 to 5 seconds. Meaning you might get anywhere from 60 frames to 300 frames to represent the same amount of actual game speed... So whenever you see someone breaking down Madden in Instant Replay at super slow motion - understand that most of the frames you're seeing at those slow speeds never actually happen during the game. Clipping at slower speeds isn't necessarily clipping at full speed... But no one can tell which frames are REAL and which ones are interpolated. All we can be sure of is that anything that is slower than full speed is partially interpolated and cannot be trusted to be a representation of what actually happened in the game. Later

I honestly appreciate you taking the time to explain exactly what you meant but this bold sentence seems to undermine using interpolation as a reasoning for why the program is still not to blame.

So both clipping and interpolation are caused by the program, right? For example, in real life, recording a NFL game and using instant replay doesn't cause the appearance of clipping/warping, does it?

Maybe what you are saying is over my head and if so, that's cool. I just don't get how even a play with interpolation, can be equated to the User fault, if it basically just means, we can't trust what we are seeing.