I think EA should scratch the ratings system.

[briz1744]

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

The NFL doesn't differentiate for contract purposes. It seems correct, then, that the game does not either. As to ratings, they are absolutely differentiated; case and point, compare 3-4 DE Marcus Spears of the Cowboys to 4-3 DE Mark Anderson of the Bills. Behind those traits in APF are numbers; those who have made APF roster editors have proven this. Fundamentally, computers are driven by numbers. If your desire is that the numbers be hidden, I agree with you. However, somewhere in the game at some level a player's speed is going to be quantified into an exact number. As to how Madden quantifies a player's skill set, reportedly they are deciding ratings based upon NFL Combine workout data and some sort of player scouting done external from EA Sports.

Your statement applys only in franchise etc tag designations where a single number must be produced not in the reality of how nfl defences work, rosters are built etc
In madden positions appear set in stone whereas in reality they are far more fluid , nearly 50% of teams run 3-4 Ds yet in 2013 madden cannot designate a NT or accept a player may play DT or DE depending on scheme and move between schemes without being 'out of position'
In madden an OLB like Vilma will do just as well as De Ware if his overall is equal esp in simmed games
Apparently all teams also use their 3rd best WR/ CB in the slot even if he's 6' 5'' and 225 and as agile as a hippo as it has no nickel back designation
With the new XP system( old pS2 ??) We are now even unable to edit positions( it was never a good option before due to the peculiaries of the way the various OVR weightings were set as if a DE was an entirely separate species to an OLB for example and could never cover -- zone blitz?)
The entire way madden forms depth charts requires a major overhaul concentrating on versatility not pigeon-holing and attributes/ skillsets over rigid position designations
This aspect of the game hasn't evoved/progressed in a decade , surely its time to improve this not further artificially restrict

[rootofalleli]

There have to be numbers, or else the players will be even more similar. I do see problems with people getting too caught up in ratings, however.

Keeping them hidden or reduced to grades (perhaps as an option in CCM) would add a lot of depth to the game. I'd rather know that, say, Paul Kruger is an A pass rusher, B- run stopper, and C- in coverage. I'd enjoy the option to scout other teams rather than to just look at their rosters and see everything. I'd love to see combine numbers before the draft and to have increasing certainty about a college player's grades as I scout him. I also miss the draft notes we used to get. Right now I can scout a player's injury score and know that he's a big risk. It costs almost nothing! All I should really be able to know is his injury history and his physical exam results. Ratings should exist, but they shouldn't take risk and uncertainty out of the game.

I'd also like to see the weekly ratings changes go away. Monthly updates could make sense, but I don't see the point in a player's numbers changing because of how he was featured in the gameplan that week or who he was matched up against. If a guy's ratings are based on years of data, why should we even consider changing those ratings after ONE game? Ratings changes should reflect that someone has really fallen off or has broken out, not that he had a decent day running against Cleveland or even that he got fired up and made some great plays in the playoffs. Obviously rookies and new starters have reasons to change, but I don't think established starters need the constant +/- 1 or 2 points.

Overall, we need players to be different and we need to know enough to make personnel decisions. Right now though, ratings are too much in the forefront of the game.

[juggalotusx]

I guess what I was trying to say is that with madden and the way it is set up with sliders, your players no matter a 1st string or 3rd string will all play out the same if in the starting position with sliders. The only exception I could see would be top QBs. I could start a team on defense with numbers in the 60s for ovralls on defense and would end up with the same statss as the original starters for the team. The sliders control the game not the ratings. Thats what I am trying to say I guess.They can add traits and all this other garbage to pretend this is how your fav player plays in the nfl but its just not gonna happen. They have no personality or like 2k has there emotion. IDK I think the Engine needs to be scrapped again in stead of just overlaying the "Physics" engine over the old engine and calling it new and built from the ground up. To me certain players are good at certain things wether its running routes,one handed catches,being elusive,throwingthe deep ball, ect. but in madden everyone is kinda good at everything when you have sliders hence making the only thing that really matters in the game is speed which can even be controlled by threshold. Those are my thoughts.

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by juggalotusx

Here me out, I have thought about this for a while and have come to the conclusion that until the ratings are scratched and sliders are taken out of the game there will be no personality for the players themselves or for the team. I think with being able to have sliders making them work how you want ruins the game play cause most of the time you just set them to make it harder for yourself cause the game is to easy.

Sliders should be for stick skills considerations only, I agree there. I don't agree with removing sliders.

As far as ratings - they have to be there. What else is a computer program going to use.

Players are "rated" by scouts. The numbers are a proxy for that, and often, scouts DO use numbers themselves.

Quote: Originally Posted by juggalotusx

For instance if you change tackle to 10 you could have patrick willis and 3 others missing the tackle on a player that has poor agility and trucking, not likely to happen but you can make it happen. Jump up the tackle to 50 and they will tackle half the time still kind of unrealistic if you ask me because it should depend on play rec,tackle and pursuit right but it doesn't its all a guessing game for EA.

Eh - I'm on 50 tackle and I don't see linebackers missing half their tackles (Thank goodness). They still miss too many, but not quite that bad.

And I feel it does matter. I have a LB with 80 TAK, he's not nearly as consistent as my 93 TAK LB. I had to play a lesser MLB when my starter got hurt. I felt it big time. His STR, AWR, PRC just weren't anywhere as good and it stung.

And just because people can put tackle on 10 for whatever reason, that doesn't mean sliders should be removed, imo.

Quote: Originally Posted by juggalotusx

To me the more options you have with attributes the more likely it is to get messed up and confuse the computer. Now I know some people will say I need the sliders for better gameplay and its to easy otherwise but I think if it was removed with a new rating system it would work the way teams play on sunday or hope anyway. You know what teams are hard to beat and what teams just plain are bad in the nfl so why cant EA make it this way. IDK maybe Im way off on this one but I think ea needs to simplify things when it comes to basics.

It's not so much "easy" or "hard" for me as I don't tune "for the challenge", but the default behaviors of the players are so bad in a lot of cases, sliders can help get that decreased so the ratings CAN show up. What good is high PUR when the LBs (for example) are too stupid to take good angles are get faked by any twitch or move the HB makes?

Same for WR running routes or catching passes, etc.

Until EA gets the actual gameplay to be more football and less "Maddenish", the ratings system and sliders are just "rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic" as the virtual Skip Bayless tweets in CCM.

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by juggalotusx

I could start a team on defense with numbers in the 60s for ovralls on defense and would end up with the same statss as the original starters for the team. The sliders control the game not the ratings.

It depends on how you set them. If I had a defense with 60s in AWR, PUR, coverage, etc (OVR is meaningless), they'd get smoked. A HB with 60 in CAR? Bleh. A LB with 60 TAK? Or 60 POW for that matter? Not for me.

Yeah, if I put them all on 100, that's going to be way easy for me. Likewise if I put QB Acc and WR catch on 0, sure, the ratings won't produce. Everyone would suck too bad for me. However, if I set them so that I see differences based on MY ability, then the ratings are expressing.

Quote: Originally Posted by juggalotusx

Thats what I am trying to say I guess.They can add traits and all this other garbage to pretend this is how your fav player plays in the nfl but its just not gonna happen.

There's nothing "garbage" about traits. They make a difference. They could use more of them for sure, but it's better than no behavioral tendencies at all.

Quote: Originally Posted by juggalotusx

To me certain players are good at certain things wether its running routes,one handed catches,being elusive,throwingthe deep ball, ect. but in madden everyone is kinda good at everything when you have sliders hence making the only thing that really matters in the game is speed which can even be controlled by threshold. Those are my thoughts.

I see guys doing different things all the time.

I have a power back from a draft class and CJ2K. CJ can spin and be quick and elusive. The power back is better off running over people. CJ trucking someone is comical at best, a fumble waiting to happen at worst.

Denarius Moore makes catches no one else on my team can. Why? 95 SPC.

Patrick Peterson's always trying to jump passes - Plays the Ball: Aggressive.

My other CB sometimes gambles at the wrong time. 70 AWR (and was even worse when he had 60s AWR).

Last game I played, said CB above had a great game. 90 MCV, best on my team. Peterson looked "more attractive" until that Plays the Ball kicked in and he was able to catch it (71 CTH).

Meanwhile, another draft corner had a ball hit him right in the hands...and he dropped it (51 CTH).

Going back to the HBs - CJ is easier to change directions with. The power back - if he has to change directions, is game over for him unless he's in the open field or it's a small subtle change to give a shoulder, etc.

There are differences.

And speed threshold doesn't stop faster players from blowing away slower ones. I've outrun the defense with a quick player and had the CPU do the same to me.

[DCEBB2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

As to how Madden quantifies a player's skill set, reportedly they are deciding ratings based upon NFL Combine workout data and some sort of player scouting done external from EA Sports.

I have yet to hear that this happens. From what I have heard the kids down in Florida doing this are using highlight vids and youtube with little actual data. Mind quoting a source?

[juggalotusx]

To me I can run Barry sanders, frank gore and walter payton and they all feel the same to me.
I understand that they need a rating system with numbers to make the cpu work its math equation but I think it could be better done and simplified.

[CM Hooe]

Quote: Originally Posted by DCEBB2001

I have yet to hear that this happens. From what I have heard the kids down in Florida doing this are using highlight vids and youtube with little actual data. Mind quoting a source?

Here's a couple quotes from a chat with Donny Moore on ESPN.com during the Madden NFL 12 pre-release buildup:

Asking about Moore's role in the ratings:

Quote:

I have the end of the day stamp of approval for it. We have a few guys that we use for different tasks and run some metrics. But we really rely heavily upon the information that's out there. Scouts, ESPN Insider, fantasy sites. It's all about compiling it and having the best sources for info.

In response to a question about Terrelle Pryor earning a SPD rating of 90 as a rookie:

Quote:

4.38 is actually the number that we saw. From the game film in college, he could not be stopped from behind. But you're right in the sense that the minute that he's in preseason games and he's not performing, then we're going to make sure the ratings reflect that.

About offensive linemen:

Quote:

Linemen are always one of the toughest things to rate every year. It's tought because of the lack of statistical benchmarks like with other players. We can look at rushing yards per team, sacks allowed. To come up with those, we look at top 50 lists from scouts and other people in football. What kind of contracts do these players get? When you see Logan Mankins get a big contract, it says that he's an elite guard. It's not the only consideration, but it factors in.

On rating rookies:

Quote:

It's probably not a heavier, both of those things factor in quite extensively. Their combine performances. Their stats in college. Where they're drafted.

---

My impression is that the Madden ratings are a blend of empirical data (particularly with rookies), scouting reports, on-field performance and reputation, and in some rare cases marketing; ex. Devin Hester rated at SPD 100 in Madden NFL 08. Admittedly, my original assertion may have been misleading, but scouting data and external scouts are, according to Moore's quotes here, at least a part of the process.