Madden 2006 Had Perfect Progression

[roolz]

Quote: Originally Posted by kcarr

So who determines that you are the gamer to whom these have to make sense. To me, as a gamer, a system in which players progress in a manner more closely related to how they progress in real life makes much more sense. Noone on here, at least from what I have seen, has said that players should not progress or even that a player's progression should be set in stone. I know that I for one am not wanting EA to go back to a pre-set progression system but rather I want them to move beyond the current system to something more realistic. I am not saying take control away from the users. In my system users actually have more control over progression than the current system. The current system, how much do you really control? You control who progresses and how much at least in some respect (within their potential your production leads to how much their overall improves). In my proposed system the user controls who improves, how much, and in what areas they improve. The major difference is this control is in terms of strategy, and decision making rather than stick skills. You could control who progresses by the number of reps given in practice, camps, preseason, games, etc. (game and preseason reps would only improve the player a couple points in awareness, play recognition, vision, and other mental attributes during their first couple games as they get used to the speed of the game). You could control how much they improve by those same reps as well as by your coach hiring decisions. You also could control how they improve by choosing what types of drills and practices they run.

Im happy with training ideas etc - im not disputing that, what I am disputing is the ceiling put on certain players in the game, even though I could personally make them studs for example.... the raw basics of it, is that Madden fails to do anything good, other than just give A,B,C rated players a set progression path.... (something we have no control over... we just assume behind the scenes that the coaching staff are doing the necessary).

The problem is that a F rated player is not going to progress to a fair level, compared to an A rated player - even IF they perform better in game.

Lets assume the CPU does the training to get the 'A' player his progression. Thats fine, its a WR who is catching balloons... +10 CTH... or whatever.

The F rated player starts in a Monday Night game (for whatever reason)... F rated player does OK and in the final drive, catches a 70 yard pass, breaks a tackle and scores the winning points.... now his performance in doing that is surely better than catching a balloon for 15 minutes a day in practice?

If that happened in real life, an unexpected player making the big play... would the camera crew and commentary team ignore it? Would they switch their attention to the sideline to the A rated player as he is supposed to be better... thus they watch him catch balloons? OR do they, this may shock you, comment on what happened on the field and possibly even praise a 'F' rated player....

Now going back to this as a gamer... on this scenario, I would want my F rated player to get more attention and progression than I would my A rated balloon catcher. But as people have said on here, my F rated player will hit a ceiling... meaning that although he breaks all the NFL receiving records in just 5 years... he will never be 'rated' as highly in the game as my A rated balloon catcher, because of the potential rating barrier.

This impacts the game in many ways:

1 - Contracts.... lower the OVR, lower the cash... lower the demand on the player

2 - Should I want to trade said F rated superstar... I would not get the value back... the CPU will see a F rated player with a 70 OVR and say, you can have a 65 OVR receiver for him.... even though, my F rated superstar holds all the NFL records for receving.....

I dont know how many more times I can be bothered to say the same thing.

[kcarr]

Quote: Originally Posted by Madden Head

Not really. All of the example are possetion receivers that are also concidered the best in the NFL at what they do. The fun part about watching the NFL and talking ratings and what not is you can have the opinion that Wess is over rated and I can disagree with you. Someone can say they think Manning is the best QB in the NFL and I can disagree and say I think it is Tom Brady. We both have our reasons and both will be good reasons most of the time. This is antoher reason I like the idea of not having a visable overall rating in Madden. It should be a letter grade. To some extent I think there should be a +/- letter grade system as well. Regardless of who you personally like more, there is no question that Wess Welker, TJ and Ward belong on a list of some of the best active WRs in the NFL. They would deserve at worst an A- grade each. Also, just because one guy may be a Deep "A" grade receiver doesn't mean he is a better "A" grade WR than someone else. This is why it is improtant to not only look at the overall Rating. Look at the individual ratings. Route Running, catch in traffic, etc. If I were to go into the free agency or looking to make a trade I should see an overall leter grade, maybe a ?? potential or a leter grade [that is debateable] and accurate skill number ratings. P.S. Where did you get those numbers. I don't see them at NFL.com so I may be missing them. Also, that doesn't really influence me one way or antoher becasue the Patriots are a short and medium passing team. I would expect that. Also, if you actually watch Patriots games [I don't know if you do] they throw a lot of screens. I am sure that has a big impact on his "average" catch location in relation to the LOS. I could care less what his average catch location is, but what his ypc, yac, and catch to drop ratio is.

Ok, lets take a quick look at wes's individual ratings. Catch in traffic he is rated a 95, tied for 7th in the NFL among wrs. Even if you look at his highlight reels he doesn't really show any ability to make catches in traffic. He is mostly making catches on short routes because people are playing soft coverages taking advantage of teams fear of the deep ball. Here he really shouldn't be anywhere above an 80.

Route running, 97 3rd in the league. This iis just BS. He is at best a good route runner but nowhere near 3rd in the NFL. Again he makes his living running simple routes against backed off coverage. I wouldn't give him above a 90.

Spectacular Catch, 80, not great but still this even watching his highlight reels there are really no spectacular catches at all. A 70 is plenty generous.

Awareness, 93, 10th in the league. This would be easier to argue if we knew exactly what awareness is but basically according to donnie (the guy making the ratings) it is a showing of the player's experience and knowledge. That said, why is wes who has only been playing for 5 years and only started 30 games considered more experienced than all these wrs who have been around and been good for so much longer than him.

Ball Carrier Vision, 92, this doesn't effect overall and I can see where he gets this rating but I think they really need to seperate open field vision from between the tackles vision.

While your idea for a letter grade is nice I am still more of a fan of the ratings range system. It leaves room for debate and has a built in system to show the fact that no player plays the same week in and week out.

The stats were from http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com.

As far as the wes's numbers in that area being low being a result of the pats being a short passing team let's look at the other recievers on the pats these last 2 years. Moss had 11.08 but that is expected, he is randy moss. Gafney averaged 9.00. Ben Watson averaged 7.38. Stallworth had 8.1. Of course running backs would probably have lower stats here but among WRs and TEs he is at the bottom of his team as well as probably the league.

[kcarr]

Quote: Originally Posted by roolz

Im happy with training ideas etc - im not disputing that, what I am disputing is the ceiling put on certain players in the game, even though I could personally make them studs for example.... the raw basics of it, is that Madden fails to do anything good, other than just give A,B,C rated players a set progression path.... (something we have no control over... we just assume behind the scenes that the coaching staff are doing the necessary). The problem is that a F rated player is not going to progress to a fair level, compared to an A rated player - even IF they perform better in game. Lets assume the CPU does the training to get the 'A' player his progression. Thats fine, its a WR who is catching balloons... +10 CTH... or whatever. The F rated player starts in a Monday Night game (for whatever reason)... F rated player does OK and in the final drive, catches a 70 yard pass, breaks a tackle and scores the winning points.... now his performance in doing that is surely better than catching a balloon for 15 minutes a day in practice? If that happened in real life, an unexpected player making the big play... would the camera crew and commentary team ignore it? Would they switch their attention to the sideline to the A rated player as he is supposed to be better... thus they watch him catch balloons? OR do they, this may shock you, comment on what happened on the field and possibly even praise a 'F' rated player.... Now going back to this as a gamer... on this scenario, I would want my F rated player to get more attention and progression than I would my A rated balloon catcher. But as people have said on here, my F rated player will hit a ceiling... meaning that although he breaks all the NFL receiving records in just 5 years... he will never be 'rated' as highly in the game as my A rated balloon catcher, because of the potential rating barrier. This impacts the game in many ways: 1 - Contracts.... lower the OVR, lower the cash... lower the demand on the player 2 - Should I want to trade said F rated superstar... I would not get the value back... the CPU will see a F rated player with a 70 OVR and say, you can have a 65 OVR receiver for him.... even though, my F rated superstar holds all the NFL records for receving..... I dont know how many more times I can be bothered to say the same thing.

I agree, the 70 yard catch is much more exciting and catches more attention. The question is what is going to improve your ability? Making 1 catch and breaking a tackle or practicing every day? Obviously the practice is going to make you a better player.

Lets go to a real life situation similar to that described here. On one hand we will take mario manningham, a guy who hasn't really shown anything in the league as of yet and making 4 catches for 26 yards. He is probably not an extremely highly rated player but he has some potential. Now as the F potential guy we will take david tyree. He made a huge play, not on monday night football but rather in the superbowl and folllowing that the next year he was on the bubble to even make the team before he got hurt and spent the year on the IR. This year he is again pretty questionable to make the team. One big play does not make you a star.

As far as the contracts thing goes, this is why I support a production type rating like head coach 09 had. That way the player would have some value due to his production without having to make him a better player for something that should not cause him to become a better player.

[bxgoods]

Madden 06 progression was not perfect... at least on PS2.
It was way too easy to get to 99, also some brainiac thought players needed to progress after every playoff game....
So if your team made the playoffs, every player was guaranteed to be a 90 rating if your team made a superbowl run.

[reyes the roof]

I don't really like the idea of in season progression for anything other than awareness, play recognition and other non physical attributes. All the physical development should happen in the off season

[Glorious Arc]

Quote: Originally Posted by roolz

Simulation? I thought Madden was a GAME? Im looking at the box right now, there is no mention of a simulation..... as far as I am aware, it is a game - a SIMULATION would not have human input as far as 'playing games'... simulation's are run via a database program, using the relevant statistics to produce an outcome.... now as far as I am aware, I can control what happens on the field (to an extent) whilst playing my Madden GAME, me playing automatically overrides whatever a simulation can produce as the computer cannot factor in my input.... so we are back to talking about a game. So lets go back to the question you are avoiding.... as a computer game, the progression of players should be based on a risk/reward factor which is generated in game, NOT because a developer has said 'Player A is rated at A potential and this is how he will turn out, no. matter, what.'

I will give you the history lesson on madden because obviously you dont know where and why it all started.

Back all the way in 1989, the devs originally wanted to make "John Madden Football" to be 6-7 men playing on the field. Madden himself, said "He will not put his name on it if it is not real" Every year madden has slowly added more and more into the game. EA's moniker is "If it is the game, then it is in the game" In Madden they have tried to create an NFL simulation.

Madden 10 sell point was this

Quote:

Experience first-hand what it’s like to Fight for Every Yard in Madden NFL 10. With the all-new Pro-Tak™ animation technology, players have more control over the outcome of each play. Whether driving a receiver towards the first down, or battling for a fumble at the bottom of a pile, the play won’t end until the whistle blows. Add to that the most immersive broadcast presentation and online innovation to date, and Madden NFL 10 captures the authenticity and emotion of the NFL like never before.

http://www.ea.com/games/madden-nfl-10

The clearly say they capture the authenticity and emotion of the NFL like never before. This is a complete lie when you compare it to how progress works in madden. There is nothing authentic nor realistic about it.

Your idea about a simulation is flawed. Have you ever heard of flight simulator? All of the sims series( Sims 1-3, Sim city, Sim Ant ect ect)? All of the Tycoon series(Roller Coaster or Prison Tycoon ect ect) Civilization? Spore? Romance of the Three Kingdoms series? There are countless games that are made that require the player to manually perform a task or give commands to achieve actions.

In a flight simulator a player commands his plane and moves it, lands it, ect ect. In the Sims series the player controls his player/creature and tells them exactly what to do. In civilization the player commands his entire empire and leads them. In Spore the player has to actively fight or grow to improve.

Those are all simulation games and they involve human interaction to be able to work. Sure you could just set them to do nothing and they would function but they would not function properly. A simulation as defined above pertains to all of these games.

Madden has been trying and saying for years that it is the representation of the NFL league. They claim, if you see it on Sundays then you will see it in the game. In fact, they are trying to make Madden into a simulation and under the above terms Madden already is a sim and can in some areas be considered a proper representation of the NFL but in the area of progression and the off season they fail epically.

People want Madden to turn into a complete simulation because EA has all the rights. They are held to a higher standard to make the game be not just a close simulation but an exact model of what really happens in the NFL. Dont believe me...Just read half the forums. People cry out to see colored shoes, less robotic animations, proper progression, hand warmers, proper skin color of their players, correct stats for their players...It goes on and on and on. They want an exact simulation of what the NFL really is...And EA has listened and made the game more like it.

Almost any sport game when you break it down, is partially, if not as a whole a simulation as defined by the terms above.

As to try and answer the question you say I have been avoiding, Just because a player has A potential does not mean he will become a 90+ overall player. I have never said that there should be some in game factor of risk/reward and to be quite honest I have no idea what you are rambling on about.

I have in my previous posts explained how a system could be implemented that would work for everyone(besides the people who hate potential)

Take HC 09's system that players grow all season long. They grow faster in X areas because they have a good coaching staff and they are getting some playing time(practice falls under this) Each stat the player has will have to reach say 2000 points to increase a total of one point. So if a player gains 2000 total points in awareness then he will gain one hard point of awareness in the game.

To build further on this, you could take 2K5's system of training your players before game day. You can have them work out, study film, ect ect and that could contribute to getting to the 2000 point total to increase that hard point +1. The training staff will influence how well they can grow there during those activities.

Another twist could be that Vets also help increase how well players grow.

The flaw in this system is that players HAVE to have a potential. If they do not then all players could grow to be 99 overalls. Teams like the Pats and Steelers would always have talented players because of their coaching/training staff are some of the best in the league.

I know the dev team is capable of implementing this system. They did it in HC 09. They have the framework sitting there to use and then they go with a PBP system for M10...

[Glorious Arc]

@ MaddenHead

I agree. Playing time should be a factor but not what you do during that playing time. I thought you were someone who thought Potential was wrong and were a PBP.

You were mixing real life and the game though. Wes was always had the potential to be a great player. He was shifted to the Pats and was put into the situation where is current skills allowed him to put up great numbers. He got better from the time he was at the Phins to the Pats yes but again you are mixing the real life with the game. In the game, everything is set and known about a players potential(maybe the potential shouldnt be visible but it is) and EA becomes all knowing in the sense that they know how good everyone will be able to become. IRL no one can really say who is the next AD or the next Brady ect ect.

What we do know is that we as normal people dont have the skills and wont ever get the skills to play in the NFL. Maybe one of your friends may make it but he will be 1 out of 3000 in a population of 300 million(just Americans not including international players) that have the potential to become an NFL player. Even then there is still only less then 300 people who are HOFers. By not having a potential cap system you are basically throwing those facts away. You are saying that everyone is equal and the sad truth is that is wrong.

(I am not directly saying this to you when I say you. I am saying it generally to everyone)

[Jump]

Quote: Originally Posted by kcarr

The player is playing at the ability of the ratings he currently has. You already know how much of the real deal a player is by looking at their ratings. Their is nothing to prove.

Exactly. When your 60 ovr WR catches 60 balls in Madden, he is playing at that exact rating, he is not outperforming his rating.

Quote: Originally Posted by roolz

Im happy with training ideas etc - im not disputing that, what I am disputing is the ceiling put on certain players in the game, even though I could personally make them studs for example.... the raw basics of it, is that Madden fails to do anything good, other than just give A,B,C rated players a set progression path.... (something we have no control over... we just assume behind the scenes that the coaching staff are doing the necessary). The problem is that a F rated player is not going to progress to a fair level, compared to an A rated player - even IF they perform better in game. Lets assume the CPU does the training to get the 'A' player his progression. Thats fine, its a WR who is catching balloons... +10 CTH... or whatever. The F rated player starts in a Monday Night game (for whatever reason)... F rated player does OK and in the final drive, catches a 70 yard pass, breaks a tackle and scores the winning points.... now his performance in doing that is surely better than catching a balloon for 15 minutes a day in practice? If that happened in real life, an unexpected player making the big play... would the camera crew and commentary team ignore it? Would they switch their attention to the sideline to the A rated player as he is supposed to be better... thus they watch him catch balloons? OR do they, this may shock you, comment on what happened on the field and possibly even praise a 'F' rated player.... Now going back to this as a gamer... on this scenario, I would want my F rated player to get more attention and progression than I would my A rated balloon catcher. But as people have said on here, my F rated player will hit a ceiling... meaning that although he breaks all the NFL receiving records in just 5 years... he will never be 'rated' as highly in the game as my A rated balloon catcher, because of the potential rating barrier.

If a low rated WR player holds all the NFL receiving records, you should take a look at the game play engine, not the progression system.