Bill Abner's Review

[Bill_Abner]

Truth be told, I despise slapping a grade on a review. I admittedly suck at it. I have felt this way for 15 years now and time has not changed either my opinion -- or my ability to do it. If I could get away with completely removing grades from Gameshark or adopting a simple "Thumbs Up/Down" system I would do it in a heartbeat.

But people like scores. I guess we're catering to the casual website reader.

That said --

I don't feel at all like you are attacking the review, but really even if you were that's ok. Reviews are opinions and forums are places where people express them so having an issue with an article is what spurns discussion, so don't sweat that. As long as things stay civil I'm happy to discuss it.

And you make some very good points about online play and sliders. It's a fair criticism of both the game and the review.

As for it being the gamer's job to tweak the setting, boy, I could not agree with you more. It is an ongoing frustration that so many games, not just Madden, ship with base settings geared toward the super casual gamer. EA is touting Madden as a realistic NFL game and the way it plays out of the box is anything but, so yes, I agree with you completely.

You know, one game I thought did a very good job out of the box this year was NCAA 11. Very few big slider changes in that game, for me anyway but the passing game in Madden from accuracy to defensive reaction time to interceptions need serious tweaks.

Quote: Originally Posted by Only1LT

I appreciate your response, and I understand what you are saying. Again, I thought that the review was an insightful one, but I still don't think that it jibes with the score. Madden is supposed to be a simulation. You can add all the modes that you want. All the features that you want. All the fanfare that you want. At the end of the day, the game's primary, imperative, and perhaps only goal, is to play a realistic brand of Football. If it doesn't, then it has failed. To what extent it fails, depends on how far off the target it veered. Now I understand that there are sliders in the game. I understand that you could conceivably adjust, tweak, and tease the game to playing a more realistic representation of the sport, but is that the gamer's job? To make a better game than the developer? I don't think so, but maybe it is. Consider this. Sliders can't be used in online play, so for anyone that wants to play a realistic brand of Football online, they would be out of luck, if it only plays a realistic game with sliders. Consider that everyone's idea of what the sliders should be set at to get this realistic gaming nirvana, will differ from person to person. Not a big deal if you play alone exclusively, but if you play competitively against human opponents, even offline... well whose sliders do you use? House rules? Maybe. Consider also, that I would guess that the majority of gamers that play Madden, don't adjust sliders even for offline. If the majority of Madden's fan base is as "casual" as they would have us believe, and as "casual" as many posters on this site claim, then it shouldn't be to hard to accept that these "casual" gamers, would not be adjusting sliders. I am not attacking your review, nor am I attacking the game. I thought that the written portion was well thought out, and at the end of the day, you can give the game any score you want. That is your right. As is my right to think that if you believe that Madden not only doesn't play a realistic game of Football out of the box, but by your words, an arcadey game of Football out of the box, then I can't see how a game that fails at it's most primary directive, with all due respect, deserves a score that high.

[PGaither84]

Quote: Originally Posted by Bill_Abner

That sort of depends, though. If you approach returning kicks like your brain tells you you should -- look for a lane, bust through it and make maybe one cut and go -- then you will get crushed. Routinely. I played a dozen games without getting a kick back to the 30 using Cribbs. It was frustrating. After you discover the trick to kick returning it becomes much, much easier. Definitely an area that needs improvement.

I edited my post. if you watch my returns, before I take them down for real replays, you'll see most of mine are done like you said. I don't have to make a bunch of cuts to score, just a pair of nicely timed ones at most. I have another from a Chiefs game where I just went down the sideline during an OTP game.

[Only1LT]

Quote: Originally Posted by roadman

I understand what you are saying. He also said that playing 11 makes 10 obsolete. He also said with slider tweaks, the game plays a good game of football. There isn't a sports game in console or pc history that I haven't tweaked sliders to play a more realistic game. I think that is the norm for offline franchise players. Just my thoughts.

I have played a ton of sports titles in my lifetime. I have never adjusted a slider on a single solitary one of them for one reason or another. Whether it's because I saw no point to learn to play a game one way, only to not be able to play it that way when playing competitively or because the game simply did not need adjusting.

Everyone is different I know, but I get no joy out of playing the computer in a sports game. AI has always been, and will hopefully always be, fallible (SkyNet anyone lol?). For most games, I like to play humans. I leave offline single player to the games that don't have multiplayer.

I know that many people on this site are OK with using sliders to get the game to be a simulation, but I am not one who feels that this is the consumer's responsibility. If the game is supposed to be a sim, and many users claim that it can be made a sim by using sliders, then why haven't the developers done it??? With all due respect to Ian and Co, if I wanted to make my own game, I'd buy Little Big Planet.

Maybe I am being unreasonable for putting the onus on the makers of the sim to actually make it sim, but I sure as hell don't think so.

[PGaither84]

LT, it's not wrong to put the onus on EA to make the game sim, however, that doesn't change the fact that they didn't. Madden 11 out of the box is NOT sim. Go ahead and enjoy it, I am so far, but it is NOT SIM. [Did I say that it isn't sim? Because it isn't. I didn't want to forget to mention how the game isn't sim out of the box, that's all.]

If you want a sim experience you have two choices:

1.) use sliders to get the closest sim experience you can out of the game and enjoy it.

2.) Accept it will never be sim and play it as is and abuse the life out of it.

Any other option is a waste of time, or you are lying to yourself that you choose option two.

EDIT:

Unrelated, but here is the other return.

EA Sports: Madden NFL 11 Video Highlight

[Only1LT]

Quote: Originally Posted by Bill_Abner

Truth be told, I despise slapping a grade on a review. I admittedly suck at it. I have felt this way for 15 years now and time has not changed either my opinion -- or my ability to do it. If I could get away with completely removing grades from Gameshark or adopting a simple "Thumbs Up/Down" system I would do it in a heartbeat. But people like scores. I guess we're catering to the casual website reader. That said -- I don't feel at all like you are attacking the review, but really even if you were that's ok. Reviews are opinions and forums are places where people express them so having an issue with an article is what spurns discussion, so don't sweat that. As long as things stay civil I'm happy to discuss it. And you make some very good points about online play and sliders. It's a fair criticism of both the game and the review. As for it being the gamer's job to tweak the setting, boy, I could not agree with you more. It is an ongoing frustration that so many games, not just Madden, ship with base settings geared toward the super casual gamer. EA is touting Madden as a realistic NFL game and the way it plays out of the box is anything but, so yes, I agree with you completely. You know, one game I thought did a very good job out of the box this year was NCAA 11. Very few big slider changes in that game, for me anyway but the passing game in Madden from accuracy to defensive reaction time to interceptions need serious tweaks.

Played the NCAA demo, but don't have the retail. Enjoyed the demo, but I didn't enjoy certain issues that perennially plagues the EA Football titles still remaining. Namely the synchronized route running.

I must admit that I have only become aware of your reviews fairly recently. Roadman is a fan of yours and has brought your reviews to my attention in one way or another on several occasions lol. I'm curious on your thoughts of other Football franchises, 2K in particular, to see, for comparison's sake, how much tweaking you thought they needed compared to Madden.

I don't want to start a 2K war, nor derail the thread. I just think that in the context of the review, it is some what relevant. If you or a mod feels otherwise, it could be taken offline though. You needn't feel any obligation though. Like I said, I was just curious and I would not be offended in the least if you declined. I appreciate your thoughtful responses thus far.

[roadman]

Quote: Originally Posted by Only1LT

I have played a ton of sports titles in my lifetime. I have never adjusted a slider on a single solitary one of them for one reason or another. Whether it's because I saw no point to learn to play a game one way, only to not be able to play it that way when playing competitively or because the game simply did not need adjusting. Everyone is different I know, but I get no joy out of playing the computer in a sports game. AI has always been, and will hopefully always be, fallible (SkyNet anyone lol?). For most games, I like to play humans. I leave offline single player to the games that don't have multiplayer. I know that many people on this site are OK with using sliders to get the game to be a simulation, but I am not one who feels that this is the consumer's responsibility. If the game is supposed to be a sim, and many users claim that it can be made a sim by using sliders, then why haven't the developers done it??? With all due respect to Ian and Co, if I wanted to make my own game, I'd buy Little Big Planet. Maybe I am being unreasonable for putting the onus on the makers of the sim to actually make it sim, but I sure as hell don't think so.

I think PGaither said it better than I would.

I think this would fall under the catagory, "to each their own."

I do understand the online out of the box frustration.

To make it a sim experience for me playing against the AI in every sports game, I've had to adjust sliders all the time.

[Only1LT]

Quote: Originally Posted by PGaither84

LT, it's not wrong to put the onus on EA to make the game sim, however, that doesn't change the fact that they didn't. Madden 11 out of the box is NOT sim. Go ahead and enjoy it, I am so far, but it is NOT SIM. [Did I say that it isn't sim? Because it isn't. I didn't want to forget to mention how the game isn't sim out of the box, that's all.] If you want a sim experience you have two choices: 1.) use sliders to get the closest sim experience you can out of the game and enjoy it. 2.) Accept it will never be sim and play it as is and abuse the life out of it. Any other option is a waste of time, or you are lying to yourself that you choose option two. EDIT: Unrelated, but here is the other return. EA Sports: Madden NFL 11 Video Highlight

Lol. Believe me, I am well aware that Madden is not, and never has been, and sadly (sniff) probably never will be sim. At least not with the current development house in place. Just how I feel.

Option 1 though, has never been, and will never be an option for me, because the majority of my play time is spent against human opponents online so a slider does me absolutely, positively, no good. In fact it does me less than no good. For me, sliders do not even exist. Literally.

Option 2 isn't an option either, because I can't accept it as is lol. Do I own Madden 11? Yes. I can honestly say though that if not for the Madden 10 $40 trade in deal, I would have skipped 11. That isn't to say that 11 is terrible or that I hate it. Just that, like Sgt Murtaugh, I'm too old for this ish. The bloom is off the rose. The genie can't be put back in the bottle. I need an actual sim Football game, or at least one that is reasonable facsimile of a sim. If not, then I can abstain.

That's not to say that I don't see improvement. I do. Everyone says that 10 and 11 are a step in the right direction. They are. The problem is that the promised land is many miles a way. A step every year just isn't cutting it for me.

Going off on a tangent I know. Basically, I'm not using sliders. Mainly because I can't, but partially because I don't think I should have to. If you want to cater your game to be a non sim out of the box, go ahead. That's your right. To me though, it shows where there focus is though. If the game is not sim out of the box, then that means that you aren't designing the game for me in the first place. You're designing it for the non sim crowd. Again, that's fine. Since I am a part of the sim crowd though, I will shop around for a game that IS marketed towards me. How will I know? How the game is out of the box, will be a good barometer.

[GiantBlue76]

I'm with LT in that I don't enjoy playing the computer. Sure, I'll play some games here and there, but eventually it's going to get predictable and easy. It's a program. It will never have the element that a human has. That being said, I had every madden from 1989 to 2001. I had every 2k from 2001 to 2004. Not once did I ever change a single slider for ANY of those games. I also have APF2k8, and not once have I ever changed the sliders there either. Out of the box on APF, I see PI penalties, I see Def holding, I see defensive players jump offsides but not touch someone and then jump back onside (another thing Madden lacks ), etc. etc. Out of the box it should be an NFL simulation. Period. The fact that it isn't should hurt its review score. I've real nearly all of the reviews, and I have yet to see any of them point out certain "little" things that are not apparent in the game that are a huge part of the NFL. If these things are not pointed out in reviews, how will the developers at Tiburon ever realize that they need to put this stuff in?

So Bill, like others on this thread, I appreciate your reviews the most, but when the game gets such a high score when it lacks many things past games already have implemented quite well, people rush out and buy it, then it's high fives all around at Tiburon, vacation time and bonuses for a job well done. Really? Great for them, but we are left with an incomplete, unpolished game set to be the exact same thing the following year.