I Don't Understand All the Madden Haters!

[ODogg]

Quote: Originally Posted by bucky60

Really? We have taken HUGE strides BACKWARDS since 2k has been out of the picture, after huge strides had been made while 2k was in the picture. And competition does to force a company to provide a better product. History is against your analysis.

The strides backwards has been during the time frame we have gone from PS2 to PS3. Every time a sports game transitions to a new platform features are lost or changed. Yes not as drastically as Madden/NCAA but that is usually the case.

Where are all the huge improvements Madden made during the ESPN 2k years? They improved incrementally exactly how they have done on the next-gen. Normally I'd agree that competition does provide a much better product but that's not really applied to EA's football games. If it was then we wouldn't have every other thread in the EA football forums still bringing up ESPN 2K had this and Madden still doesn't have it.

If EA made their games more like their competition then we'd have full ESPN style broadcast like the 2K games did. We didn't ever get that then and we don't have it now. And that's just one example. ESPN had a bunch of other things that were vastly superior to Madden that EA never even acknowledged, let alone implement in their title.

For example, how QB's dropped back in ESPN, you couldn't run backwards like an idiot. If you did you'd be sacked easily. EA never adopted that then, despite it being something the fans constantly brought up, and here we are years and years later and EA has never adopted it.

I would love to be wrong. I would love it if EA would adopt their game towards being better by copying, or besting, their competition. But it's never happened in the past and it will not ever happen in the future. Why? Because Madden is a proven formula that has history and is a massive money machine. Because EA views their football games like Coke. A lot of people love Coke. A lot of people love Pepsi. Does the competition between Coke and Pepsi make Coke think they need to adopt their flavor to bring in Pepsi fans? No, they don't. They do their Coke thing. That's how EA views their football games. They are not going to change the formula even if their competition does some things radically better.

However, as I said before, I still want competition. Not because it changes EA's football games much, it doesn't. But because you always have the option to play something else and if Madden/NCAA ever got so awful that the masses started playing something else then maybe they really would radically update/change their football games. But we are years from that ever happening. Despite slowing sales of their football games they're still hugely profitable and unlikely to change anytime soon.

[bucky60]

Quote: Originally Posted by Broncos86

You're not understanding what a parallel example is. First, I said desktop OS. I did not bring up servers, you're becoming overly aggressive and unreasonable.

I'm not being unreasonable. Microsoft is even continueing to lose it's foreign WS market share. And Microsoft is also in the Server Market. The only Market they are "currently" not losing market share is DOMESTIC WS. And as companies gain experience and comfort with Linus and Open Office, that may change as well.

And Microsoft has absolutely nothing to do with Madden. I can come up with 1000's of examples of competition improving products. Your using a Strawman argument. Not relevant.

Quote: Originally Posted by Broncos86

Again, this is a parallel example. If one understands the concept, then one can replace Microsoft for EA Sports.

And I can show literally 1000's of examples where competition has improved products. Your using a Strawman argument. It's irrelevant.

[spankdatazz22]

No one company has all the answers. While Microsoft isn't in danger of losing it's market position, there's no doubt there are innovations from other companies that Microsoft incorporates into it's products. And vice versa. As dominant as The Show is, there's no doubt MLB2K has influenced it somewhat with it's right-stick features, adopting real-time presentation, etc. As dominant as NBA2K has been, there's no doubt a few years ago NBA Live influenced 2K's fleshing out of player tendencies by Live's adoption of Senergy (sp). I remember seeing an interview where the CEO of [one of those warehouse stores] said he frequently walks through competitors' stores to see what they may be doing better than his company is doing, because it's only logical. I don't think any of the companies can afford to conduct business as if they're in a vacuum.

Except Madden/NCAA in a way can w/o legitimate competition. Tiburon can afford to come out and say they'll adopt real time physics "when they're ready", because what option do people really have if they want an NFL or NCAA game? Especially when you had Madden devs like Ian floating that they didn't think 11vs11 w/realtime physics was doable this generation. Backbreaker's very existence lets gamers know it's doable. When 2K5 did online leagues, Tiburon couldn't say it wasn't doable (instead, said they were waiting to "do it right" lol). Look at how these wireless companies go at it - none can afford the perception of being very far behind the others because of competition.

It's foolish to think competition wouldn't have influenced the videogame football market considering we're looking at games (Madden/NCAA) that quite possibly haven't added a single innovative gameplay feature this generation.

[kjcheezhead]

Quote: Originally Posted by ODogg

Competition is usually a good thing and I"m all for it but I never believed it did much to change the way EA programs their football games. I have seen a time or two in Madden's history where it's been pushed by competition (the 2D to 3D transition for example) but for the most part Madden developers program the game every year adding to it as if in a bubble. The great thing about competition is you have an alternate product to buy but don't kid yourself and think it radically changes or pushes Madden to be all that much different because it doesn't and really never has.

Not entirely true, just look at the last game 2k made. APF2k8 hid the ratings and went with an abilities based system. Low and behold, Madden 08 had a "weapons" system where star players got additional boosts of certain skills,

Also in Backbreaker, for as bad as it was, it put all the jukes/spins on the sticks. Madden 10 delivered an option to have those moves on the sticks as well.

EA chose to add those things into their game at the same time there was competition offering them. Companies steal good ideas from their competition all the time, EA is no different.

[Broncos86]

Quote: Originally Posted by bucky60

I'm not being unreasonable. Microsoft is even continueing to lose it's foreign WS market share. And Microsoft is also in the Server Market. The only Market they are "currently" not losing market share is DOMESTIC WS. And as companies gain experience and comfort with Linus and Open Office, that may change as well. And Microsoft has absolutely nothing to do with Madden. I can come up with 1000's of examples of competition improving products. Your using a Strawman argument. Not relevant. And I can show literally 1000's of examples where competition has improved products. Your using a Strawman argument. It's irrelevant.

Again, I have offered an example that competition does not guarantee improvement. At no point did I claim my example displayed an absolute value. I suggest reading with more objectivity and less agenda.

There is a difference between competition keeping a company honest, and competition existing as a means of borrowing ideas. I never claimed the latter was not true, and I even pointed out that MS "borrows" ideas. But this wasn't my point. Please take note that I used the word "threatened" in my original comment about MS. This is a vast contrast in tone to suggesting an exchange of ideas.

Bucky, if you want to continue with a subjective attitude, go for it, but I think I'm done defending myself when I've made myself crystal clear on multiple occasions. If you're unwilling to approach me with objectivity, I cannot combat against an unwilling mind.

[BlackJackRabbit]

Quote: Originally Posted by Mike Smoove

You got it all wrong, Madden did not take 2K away from you, the NFL did. The NFL decided to put the license up for bid and EA out bid the competition. EA did not have a secret meeting with the NFL where they convinced them to go exclusive. If you have any hate over 2K being gone it should be 50% towards the NFL for deciding to sell the license, and 50% towards 2K for not out bidding EA.

While lack of alternatives ( for a football game) isn't EA's fault, the state of the game is. I don't agree that Madden is the same game every year. 06, 07, 08, 09,10 and 11 all seemed different, and 12 seems vastly different, but the problem through out this generation ( in my opinion) has been that ,while the games have been different, the same problems have appeared for several years.

[kbmnm247]

Quote: Originally Posted by ODogg

Competition is usually a good thing and I"m all for it but I never believed it did much to change the way EA programs their football games. I have seen a time or two in Madden's history where it's been pushed by competition (the 2D to 3D transition for example) but for the most part Madden developers program the game every year adding to it as if in a bubble. The great thing about competition is you have an alternate product to buy but don't kid yourself and think it radically changes or pushes Madden to be all that much different because it doesn't and really never has.

Hahah if you don't think competition would radically change or push Madden then you are a lost cause.

Madden 05 for Xbox/PS2 is beyond where Madden is on the 360/PS3 in everything other than graphics. That's a joke.

If you don't think a competitor in the same genre would force EA to make Madden grow by leaps and bounds year to year than obviously you didn't see what they did with FIFA and NHL and tried to do with NBA. Coincidence that all of those brands were totally revamped and Madden has been adding/removing the same features for years now?

[ODogg]

Quote: Originally Posted by kjcheezhead

Not entirely true, just look at the last game 2k made. APF2k8 hid the ratings and went with an abilities based system. Low and behold, Madden 08 had a "weapons" system where star players got additional boosts of certain skills, Also in Backbreaker, for as bad as it was, it put all the jukes/spins on the sticks. Madden 10 delivered an option to have those moves on the sticks as well. EA chose to add those things into their game at the same time there was competition offering them. Companies steal good ideas from their competition all the time, EA is no different.

No question EA steals the competitions good ideas. The point I'm making is that it's usually minor things that EA will throw in if they can, but they've never radically changed their game or how their game plays due to competition. And they never will, unless Madden/NCAA numbers take massive hits (ala Triple Play baseball).