Why aren't people focused on improvement?

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

BigFNDeal, I wholeheartedly understand your point because I've stood where you stand... But I've learned through years of experience that the assertion you are making is missing a key element that is 100% necessary to create a SIM environment: Skill In real life EVERYONE in the NFL is skilled at performing their role from players, to coaches, to the ball boys. If this were also true in Madden, this discussion would never have to take place. Follow me here: There are 120+ colleges in the US with football programs. Each of these teams carries upward of 60 players on the roster. Yet, there are only about 1800 professional players. Meaning there are THOUSANDS of players good enough to play college, but not god enough to play PRO. Dare I say that of the 1800 professional players, many of them are hanging by a thread because their skill set makes them JUST GOOD ENOUGH to play... But look around the OS community... Strategy is NOT the strong point of this community. The strategy section is a proverbial ghost town all year long. Indeed, there are about 5 people that post to OS forums that I trust to discuss X's and O's in a knowledgeable fashion. That said, there seem to be hundreds of OS'ers that can discuss 'fake football' endlessly... When I mentioned earlier that I have been where you stand, I meant it. When Madden '03 went online, I got my head smashed in. After some soul-searching I discovered that I had the following strategic weaknesses: A-Gap Blitzes Scrambling Quarterbacks Stacked Defenses Compressed Formations Motion Compression Offenses Defending No-Huddle Instantly Adjusting Assignments and Position Reading Coverage Throwing Passes with Control So when I first went online to find some help with these things and discovered MaddenOnline.US, I felt relieved that others sought to gather and rally for many of the same reasons as I did. I was dismayed though by the blatant focus on pointing fingers at EA and opponents because this approach would NEVER help me reach my strategic objectives. I searched far and wide for a website that encouraged strategic growth while discouraging gimmicks for gimmicks sake. I'm an X's and O's fanatic who eats, sleeps, and drinks the NFL. Unfortunately, I found ZERO. So I started my own site called MaddenUniversity.com for people who want to become better Madden players using real football tactics. What I realized through my journey since my epiphany in the Madden '03 year was: I wasn't good enough at my understanding of football (even after having watched and played football since the '70s). So I sought to rectify my strategic knowledge weaknesses by consulting the only sources I knew would have good football information: NFL COACHES. I started reading books written how to execute a West Coast offense, playing defense, and special teams and applied that to my Madden repertoire. I'm also pleased to announce that everything I tried worked EXACTLY like the coaches in the books I'd read said it should for the same reasons... Needless to say, it's hard to say real coaches with real football concepts are off base when I've had 100% success implementing their systems for more than 9 years. It's far easier to say the members of a community that is filled with players who don't even average 1 strategy thread a month are off base... Later

@TNT, I don't believe you do understand where I am coming from. You keep discussing how to compete while I am talking about the parameters of the competition. If boxer Floyd Mayweather Jr. trained hard for a title fight, learning how to counter his next opponents best punches, then in the 1st round his opponent begins to kick as well as throw punches. Mayweather was clearly unprepared for a kick boxing match but he would still be one of the most skilled boxers, ever.

Ditto with Madden, when someone boots up a game and expects to play NFL football but instead find themselves in a pigskin grudge match, not adequately regulated by NFL guidelines. Everything from missing NFL rules, like remaining on the field of play to make plays/illegal contact to ineffective representation of basic NFL execution like player movement/realistic play and counter play.

Some people enjoy competing in Madden and you seem to be one those people, cool. However, competing in Madden using general concepts like personnel, position and tempo, an assessment which can be applied to any team sport and almost any competition, even musical chairs and red light-green light, does not equal NFL football.

I will gladly acknowledge it takes skill to be consistently successful in Madden against the vast assortment of unregulated tactics. What you seem to refuse to acknowledge is, that skill set has very little, if anything, to do with NFL football.

Every year NFL football gamers are marketed to metaphorically bring knives to what turns out later to be a gun fight, in Madden online head to head.

[TombSong]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

I may get a warning about this because it will be unpopular, but I think we are misunderstanding Madden's CORE. Madden built it's reputation for responsive game play, strategic depth, and football sophistication. Not to mention it was hella fun to play 1v1. Franchise, which didn't appear til the series was 10 years old. It only seems core because the series is in it's 20's and many of the players don't remember playing when there was NO FRANCHISE. Lastly... regarding 2K. Don't get me wrong, 2K looks stunning and may be a joy to play, but Madden players don't care. Being great at 2K will NOT translate to greatness in Madden, but it seems many people believe it should. Alas... Madden haters often point to 2K because that's the game they really want to play. Later

I have been playing Madden since the first Madden. I am no new comer to the game. However that's irrelevant to the point. No one is saying Madden has to play like another game. We are saying madden needs to fix the things that are broken and advance the game. Also, why is it anyone that points out these things that DO need to be done, you label "haters" ?

Also what does being good at one game or the other have to do with Madden needing to improve ? I am competitive at both games and like/dislike things about both games. However loyalty to one or the other does not blind my vision when you can clearly see problems that need to be addressed in both games.

I am sure NBA Live thought "fan base" was enough to keep that game on top. Look where they are now. It ain't enough to just make a game good enough to keep what you THINK is your "fan base" happy. I would bet Millions if 2K had still been making football games the last 5 years Madden would also be in the same boat as Live right now.

[mikenever]

Quote: Originally Posted by Argooos

So you don't care about any of the additions to Madden 12? If not, then you're probably never going to be happy with the game. Yes, there are some fundamental problems with the gameplay, but that does not prevent, for example, franchise mode from being the best mode it can be. I just don't understand your mindset. Even if the game is flawed, it can still be improved in many ways. Why is it pointless to try to improve the game?

I see that there is a wishlist thread. It seems like it's several pages, which accumulate over several months worth of ideas. Im not sure if theyve done this in years past but assuming they have, it's always been a waste of time since, I'm sure, there have been a number of great ideas that were completely ignored.

And then there's the matter of franchise mode. Even though they've claimed to upgrade it this year, it's still missing big features that were available last gen. Namely, you can still not build a stadium and, say, put the Vikings outdoors. Again, this was a feature in franchise mode on the previous gen.

When Madden transitioned from the PS1 to the PS2, the substantive features moved with it. When they transitioned from PS2 to PS3, they dropped a lot of features and still havent replaced some of them (while charging $60).

Meanwhile, while EA has been sitting on their hands, there has been no shortage of recommendations. But that's not the problem. The problem is that EA has done nothing with them. This is why I say it's a pointless exercise.

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

@TNT, I don't believe you do understand where I am coming from. You keep discussing how to compete while I am talking about the parameters of the competition. If boxer Floyd Mayweather Jr. trained hard for a title fight, learning how to counter his next opponents best punches, then in the 1st round his opponent begins to kick as well as throw punches. Mayweather was clearly unprepared for a kick boxing match but he would still be one of the most skilled boxers, ever. Ditto with Madden, when someone boots up a game and expects to play NFL football but instead find themselves in a pigskin grudge match, not adequately regulated by NFL guidelines. Everything from missing NFL rules, like remaining on the field of play to make plays/illegal contact to ineffective representation of basic NFL execution like player movement/realistic play and counter play. Some people enjoy competing in Madden and you seem to be one those people, cool. However, competing in Madden using general concepts like personnel, position and tempo, an assessment which can be applied to any team sport and almost any competition, even musical chairs and red light-green light, does not equal NFL football. I will gladly acknowledge it takes skill to be consistently successful in Madden against the vast assortment of unregulated tactics. What you seem to refuse to acknowledge is, that skill set has very little, if anything, to do with NFL football. Every year NFL football gamers are marketed to metaphorically bring knives to what turns out later to be a gun fight, in Madden online head to head.

BigFnDeal,

I do get what you're saying... But here's a more accurate analogy: Mayweather knows kicking is allowed, but CHOOSES not to train against it because he hopes his opponent won't kick.

Strategically, choosing not to train against something is not the same as being caught off guard by it. I can see being surprised by something once. Maybe even twice. But after the 10th time it shouldn't still be a surprise. How many times would Mayweather have to get kicked in the face before he started defending against kicks?

What we have is a small minority that is caught off guard, and a large group of people who are so ill-equipped, they need the game to be the problem. They can't imagine that real football strategies can solve their AI problems. In essence, they know it's a gunfight, but they CHOOSE to bring a knife.

Quote: Originally Posted by TombSong

I have been playing Madden since the first Madden. I am no new comer to the game. However that's irrelevant to the point. No one is saying Madden has to play like another game. We are saying madden needs to fix the things that are broken and advance the game. Also, why is it anyone that points out these things that DO need to be done, you label "haters" ? Also what does being good at one game or the other have to do with Madden needing to improve ? I am competitive at both games and like/dislike things about both games. However loyalty to one or the other does not blind my vision when you can clearly see problems that need to be addressed in both games. I am sure NBA Live thought "fan base" was enough to keep that game on top. Look where they are now. It ain't enough to just make a game good enough to keep what you THINK is your "fan base" happy. I would bet Millions if 2K had still been making football games the last 5 years Madden would also be in the same boat as Live right now.

I dislike some things about Madden as well... But I wouldn't play another game to see if I liked it better. Did that already years ago. I too had been Madden playing since the beginning. It took me 2-years to win my 1st game. But I improved over the course of years. Soon I thought I was competitive because I did OK in the few local tournaments in my area (before I started throwing my own) and was one of the better players among my friends. That's when I got my pride hurt. But I had my rebirth when I went online and realized that it was what I didn't know about football that was directly affecting my Madden performance.

Regarding NBA games... Don't watch 'em. Don't play 'em. Don't read about 'em. That said, I don't know what happened with NBA Live and don't really care to be frank (although someone will illuminate me about it). And I don't see how it's relevant. Same with NCAA, NHL, MLB, NASCAR, FIFA, and practically every other game you can think of.

Here's why: Some of us buy consoles for one reason and one reason only - MADDEN. Without Madden, I wouldn't need a PS1, PS2, PS3, or a 360. We're the guys that are at stores at midnight EVERY YEAR without fail. AND THERE'S TONS OF US.

Quote: Originally Posted by mikenever

I see that there is a wishlist thread. It seems like it's several pages, which accumulate over several months worth of ideas. Im not sure if theyve done this in years past but assuming they have, it's always been a waste of time since, I'm sure, there have been a number of great ideas that were completely ignored. Meanwhile, while EA has been sitting on their hands, there has been no shortage of recommendations. But that's not the problem. The problem is that EA has done nothing with them. This is why I say it's a pointless exercise.

Oddly, most of the improvements since Madden '03 have come from wish lists. EA listens. They just seem slow to act because SAYING something should be in the game and PUTTING in it in the game are different things.

Don't confuse something we want not being in the game with EA not working on them. Some things come with 1-year of implementation, other things may be 3-years away.

But what good would it do for the game to improve while the people playing it stagnate?

Of course, Madden 12 could make this a moot discussion.

Later