Speed is...well...speed!

[shttymcgee]

Quote: Originally Posted by DCEBB2001

Actually...many do. The measure was started to evaluate how fast a player could get down 40 yards to cover a punt. It has been a standard measure for quite some time. There are some great articles out there by Chad Reuter and Rob Rang regarding this practice and the evaluation of the 40 yard dash. If I can find them I will post them.

That's why the distance is 40 yards. The time certainly matters, but there are many other things that as being evaluated. Stride, cooridination, imbalances/deficiencies, effort, flexibility, acceleration, etc.are all.things that goes into the report on just the 40. Itsnot as simple as name-time. Again, I'm not saying that the tome doesn't matter, its just that its a small part of the overall picture of just that one event. Its the same for most of the measurements at any combine/pro day/try out.

[shttymcgee]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

lol, you normally offer more than just that man, care to elaborate? Not to be snide but why do players even run the 40 then? Also, why does the media and some coaches covet exceptional 40 times along with them being so closely associated with "you can't coach speed"?

Sorry, see my post above. I didn't mean that it wasn't important, just that speed isn't the only thing being evaluated (by those outside of the media and some micromanaging owners). Of course, film is the most imoprtant evaluation tool.

[DCEBB2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by shttymcgee

Sorry, see my post above. I didn't mean that it wasn't important, just that speed isn't the only thing being evaluated (by those outside of the media and some micromanaging owners). Of course, film is the most imoprtant evaluation tool.

As always...go to the film. But the 40 and other drills can contribute to estimating or predicting the maximum potential for SPD, ACC, JMP, etc. The film either verifies or denies the assumption that the potential is actually reached.

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by shttymcgee

Sorry, see my post above. I didn't mean that it wasn't important, just that speed isn't the only thing being evaluated (by those outside of the media and some micromanaging owners). Of course, film is the most imoprtant evaluation tool.

I understand that you didn't say it wasn't important but I thought you were saying teams don't use 40 times to evaluate how fast a player is and/or that 40 times are not indicative of how fast a player is, like some have implied.

If this is the case, name me a NFL player that has a lower end verifiable 40 time that is NOT considered fast or speedy.

[DeuceDouglas]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

I understand that you didn't say it wasn't important but I thought you were saying teams don't use 40 times to evaluate how fast a player is and/or that 40 times are not indicative of how fast a player is, like some have implied. If this is the case, name me a NFL player that has a lower end verifiable 40 time that is NOT considered fast or speedy.

I don't know what you'd consider low end, but Dwayne Bowe ran a 4.4 40 at his pro day and I wouldn't really consider him fast. He moves well for his size but the last thing I would consider him is speedy.

[DCEBB2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by DeuceDouglas

I don't know what you'd consider low end, but Dwayne Bowe ran a 4.4 40 at his pro day and I wouldn't really consider him fast. He moves well for his size but the last thing I would consider him is speedy.

Well remember, the tests are done in near perfected conditions. Think about it...straight line, timing from the start, on grass/turf/track (yes, scouts deduct time for running on a track). The 40 measures the POTENTIAL for a player's optimal speed. Whether that athlete meets that potential or not is up to him via his conditioning, route running, vision, agility, acc, etc. where more variables outside of speed can make a player SEEM faster.

Jerry Rice looked fast because he was such a great route runner, not because he could clear 40yards in less than 4 seconds.

[caballero]

Thanks for the answers so far, I'll follow your reply model:

The averages were from compiling all of the roster ratings for every version of the game going back to Madden 2000. Lot's of spreadsheets man.
wow, props to you! Is it possible for you to send me the 2012 spreadsheet or at least the averages?

So Cruz has one great season and increases his SPD by 4, STR by 11, AGI by 3, ACC by 2, and JMP by 5? My guess is that he already had solid measurables and physical ability but it was his technical skill that increased. I can see his AWR, CTH, TRK, ELU, BCV, JKM, SPM, SPC, CIT, RTE, and REL increasing obviously, but to increase his physical skills seems unrealistic. Most players in the league have very good physical ability. They become great when their physical abilities are matched by their technical skill.
I understand what Mr Moore tried to do: make Cruz a star, in the 85-90 range, and for that he had to raise attributes with, I totally agree with you, he shouldn't have (except jump, 88 for a 41" vertical may be too low?)...

I was referring to their lack of explanation as to how the ratings/attributes are derrived. How do they determine SPD? How is RBK measured? How do you determine a player's TGH?
random/Donny rolls the dice lol (see Hakeem Nicks having more strength than some DT's)

The issue we run into is that in Madden SPD and ACC work symbiotically. One affects the other. So if Player A has a 99 ACC and 0 SPD he will reach the 10 yard mark slower than a Player B who has a 99 ACC and 99 SPD. The ACC does not only affect the first 10 yards, but the SPD also affects this outcome.
Sorry, but that example is terrible, nobody has 99 ACC & 0 SPD, and the 99 spd guy will get separation from the 0 spd guy in a yard or even less, being well, the 0 guy has... ZERO speed (=he can cover NO ground, whatever time you give him lol)!
EDIT: went in practice mod with a 0SPD 99ACC edited Riley Cooper, and he ran from endzone to endzone in 12.6s, twice, wtf??

Using my scale for the 40 and correlating SPD ratings, a player will typicall lose 1 SPD point over the course of every 4 seasons after being drafted.
thanks! this is what Madden should use, on average: any player drops 1 point in SPD (and accel I'm guessing) every 4 year...

This is my far the most maddening of all the ratings to me when it comes to EA. How can punters and kickers be rated so low? There are kickers out there who squat well over 500lbs. I posted about this in another topic some time back. I will try to find it if I can. Meanwhile, there are some WRs/RBs/CBs/Ss who cannot squat 400lbs.
agreed, Patriots' K Gostkowski, 6-1 210, is the least strong NFL player according to EA, at 15?
Eagles' Henery, 6-1 177, with a teenage girl's arms, is a 42 STR?

Like I said, totally random lol, but Mr Moore should get the important position ratings right first (and so should you lol, remember I'm the one who pointed out you had Andy Lee at 89 Kick Power, when he should be between 95 and 99), then we could complain...

It doesn't come down to time or the opinions of critics/fans. It comes down to accuracy. The fact of the matter is that injury can affect player performance. If it didn't, then why bother sitting a guy or placing him on the PUP/IR? FBG ratings reflects that.
I don't care if a guy is injured, if you will, I'd like to be able to have a second, more credible source than EA when I want to rerate my rosters, it's all...
Could you have 2 ratings for injured players, the "normal", and the "injury" ? that way you keep the FBG roster accurate and fans/nipickers/roster makers happy...

I can answer your question. When you click on a player profile you see the best verifiable result for the the combine and pro day. That is the number NFLDS posts. You have to check each as I use the best time. I have gotten emails from athletes arguing for their best times before instead of the average. So, I have decided to use the best time in these calculations. To me, it shows the MAXIMUM POTENTIAL for an athlete's ability.
My question was asked wrong then, I'll try again...
Player A #'s are 1.52, 2.50 and 4.42 (10, 20 and 40 yd times).

Are these numbers from the same run, or are the 1.52 and 2.50 the best times he recorded in ANY 40 yarder he ran? (there's only one series of time listed, are they necessarily from the same run?)

If you read the original post, you can see that the 100m isn't even the best measure for top end speed as most professional athletes who run the 100m reach top speed within the 60-70m mark and actually lose velocity over the final 30-40m. As for Ford, his best verifiable time we found from the combine was a 4.22. Trindon Holliday posted a 4.21 at the combine. You don't see these records on NFL.com because in a rush to publish they post their "official" times instantly. In reality, the NFL teams don't even get the offical combine results until a week after the event. Odd that NFL.com posts them the same day, huh?[/quote]
yeah I always wondered why nfl.com had different "official" times!

As for the 100m, I used it to show that CJ2K isn't even as fast as Jacoby Ford (arguably the fastest NFL player, as in who reaches the top end speed), and that I couldn't create a realistic Usain Bolt if I wanted (he'd need 110+ speed if DeSean is 100)...

NB: Bolt's top speed is 27.78 mph (12.42 m/s, 44.72 km/h), reached between 60 and 80 meters during his 100m World record.

Quote: Originally Posted by DeuceDouglas

I don't know what you'd consider low end, but Dwayne Bowe ran a 4.4 40 at his pro day and I wouldn't really consider him fast. He moves well for his size but the last thing I would consider him is speedy.

he did run a 4.40 at his Pro Day, usually good for 90 spd or above...

[DCEBB2001]

@ Caballero:

Sorry about the format - just found it easier to post that way, but I will address your bold answers/replies as numbered below:

1. I do have all of those spreadsheets but they are not available for download from the site yet. What averages would you like?

2. The 41.5" vertical for Cruz should have been rated high off the bat, not when he started to do well. That is my problem with EA's ratings. They increase those raw physical attributes when they should have been that high in the first place according to the testing. His vertical would have equated to a 90 JMP in my system.

3. The point I was getting at with the 0 SPD/99 ACC example was to simply illustrate that SPD and ACC function dependently in the game. If you set it to 1 SPD and 99 ACC, the result is nearly the same. It was a hypothetical example. In Madden, you can give a player 0 for SPD, so it is possible to measure.

4. Gostkowski having a 15 STR is LAUGHABLE. First of all, he is 6-1, 212. That is a pretty high BMI even if he stuffs his face with Krispy Kremes every day. Second, he has a 1RM in the squat of 445lbs. That is higher than 33 players on his own team including:

Pat Chung
Jermaine Cunningham
Devin McCourty
Wes Welker
Deion Branch
Brian Hoyer
Ryan Mallett
Ryan Wendell (OG for God's sake)

To posit that these kickers and punters are really that weak is so erroneous I feel like I wasted my own time having to point it out.

5. Lee's kick power and everyone else's ratings are relative to the data and other players rated in the system. To argue for it to be between 95 and 99 is opinion and speculation.

6. There are no plans to alter the way players are rated according to injuries. You will simply have to keep track with who gets hurt and see how far their ratings rise and fall.

7. If player A runs 1.52, 2.50, and 4.42 and player B runs 1.40, 2.41, and 4.24, then player B still posted a better final 30 yard split (2.84 to 2.90). In the actual case of Jackson vs. CJ2K, Jackson posted 1.53, 2.52, and 4.35. This was the result of his BEST RUN out of 2 from the combine (he did not run the 40 at his pro day). Jackson covered the final 30 in 2.82 and the final 20 in 1.83. CJ2K covered the final 30 in 2.84 and final 20 in 1.83 as well as Jackson.

However, since Madden uses symbiotic ACC and SPD that do not function independently of one another, I have chosen to use average velocity over the course of 40 yards to determine the SPD rating.

If we used only the first 10 for ACC and final 30 for SPD, the fastest player would be BJ Tucker in 2003 who ran the final 30 in 2.68s. Trindon Holliday, Tyrone Calico, and Keon Raymond were all tied for 2nd best with 2.71s. Jackson would have been tied for 100th overall and CJ2K tied for 181st overall since 1998.

If the last 20 yards were used, the best was Antonio Cromartie and Quinn Ojinnaka with 1.68s. See the problem here? Ojinnaka is an OT who covered his final 20 yards in the same amount of time as Cromartie did, just from a split of 3.50 to 5.18 instead of from 2.70 to 4.38. Weird huh?

8. Those numbers for Jackson are from the same run. We post the best overall run and those splits from the combine and pro day.

9. CJ2K wasn't even as fast as Ford in the 40 (4.22 compared to 4.24) so I would have guessed that Ford would have had a better 100m time unless he lacked "speed endurance".

http://speedendurance.com/2008/08/22...eed-endurance/

Since the system does not use top SPD attained (like if we were using MPH maxes in a 100m dash) we have to go by 40 yard times for overall velocity. What would be cool is if we could have players run 100m, monitor their top velocity and the point at which it happens (around 60-80m mark) and then calculate how long it took them to get up to that maximum speed. That would then be how we acquire the ACC ratings. The faster you reach your top speed, the higher the ACC.

In his WR run, bolt covered the first 40m in 4.65s (not including his .165 reaction time). This distance, of course, is not 120 feet as in 40 yards, but is 131.232 feet. For the 10m split, Bolt covered the first 10m (32.808 feet) in 1.685s (subtracting the reaction time once again.

If we are to use the same measure (average velocity over the course of 40 yards), Bolt would have covered the first 40 yards in 4.25s seconds and the first 10 yards in 1.54s seconds. That equates to a SPD of 97 and an ACC of 84 in my system. As you can see, even the world's fastest man does not get up to speed in the first 10 yards as quickly as some football players do.

In that same run, Bolt's acceleration phase ended at the 50-60m mark, as indicated by his 10m split times.