Speed is...well...speed!

[at23steelers]

Quote: Originally Posted by DCEBB2001

I found using an in-game 40 projection project by a buddy of mine that the average NFL player loses .005s on a 40 yard dash for every 1 NFL season completed. However, that factors in injuries. The idea is pretty sound, but he uses some factors that are less than reliable in equating such numbers. Therefore, since the difference is so negligible, I simply use the combine data. Odds are, players will not get faster than how they tested when they came into the league.

That is why technique ratings and awareness should improve but physical attributes rarely get better, especially from one game to the next.

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by LBzrule

Yes. And unfortunately, when it comes to updating a player to make him play better in the game, nothing other than speed and his physical abilities are noticeable. I have my share of Donny gripes. That said, he's working with a program in which a player's improvement is seen most notably through increasing physical abilities. Just working with a CB example, how would it be noticeable for a CB to increase in man coverage by 10 points? There are no man coverage techniques in the game by the way of animations, so what does that look like? The same goes or any of the OL blocking attributes. Because his run block strength went up by five does that mean he is a better drive blocker now? Well they don't really have specific animations spelling out what each ability and the number ranges for them mean and how that is going to look. If they do, it is not visible.

I don't know why I do this to myself, guess I am just a glutton for frustration but I had to amen corner the bold, lol.

I really wish there was visual evident differences in the techniques for animations and those animations were assigned according to ratings. Not to mention just a whole slew of variations of animations doing the same act, in a different manner. For example, if CB with a low press rating actually had a different press animation than a CB with a higher press rating.

Man I swear this game seems overly complicated/deep where it should be simple/direct and far to simplistic/shallow where it should have more complexity/depth. lol

[shttymcgee]

Quote: Originally Posted by DCEBB2001

I found using an in-game 40 projection project by a buddy of mine that the average NFL player loses .005s on a 40 yard dash for every 1 NFL season completed. However, that factors in injuries. The idea is pretty sound, but he uses some factors that are less than reliable in equating such numbers. Therefore, since the difference is so negligible, I simply use the combine data. Odds are, players will not get faster than how they tested when they came into the league.

Many players get faster before they start slowing down, sometimes its just a matter of being at a higher conditioning level.

Why should their measurables begin to decline right away when they are continuing to develop as an athlete?

I would love to see more about your projection project because my experience has shown otherwise. Of course, some players do lose some speed (due to injuries, changes in body composition, work ethic issues, etc) but many continue to develop towards their 30's.

[D_Fos]

Quote: Originally Posted by shttymcgee

Many players get faster before they start slowing down, sometimes its just a matter of being at a higher conditioning level. Why should their measurables begin to decline right away when they are continuing to develop as an athlete? I would love to see more about your projection project because my experience has shown otherwise. Of course, some players do lose some speed (due to injuries, changes in body composition, work ethic issues, etc) but many continue to develop towards their 30's.

Darrel Green is another great example of a player maintaining his speed for multiple years, while still developing into a better overall corner.
Its stupid how just bc my MLB doesnt get 150 + tackles, due to a game issue, and the 1st major drop in his rating, is speed and awarness.
I belive that was THE most frustrating thing in Madden for some yrs now. London Baker-Fletcher getting worse overall, every year, eventhough he was leading my team in tackles?!?
It shouldve been based on the % of plays he had on the field that was being graded, and in no way should he have lost 3-4 steps a season just bc he didnt lead the league in tackles, although I was really in the top 10 every season and he still got worse in speed and awr. So the ratings and progressions need a complete overhaul imo.

[gamerk2]

Proving why a physics engine is badly needed for player movement.

In theory, SPD = Max Speed, and ACL = How fast a player gets up to max speed. If you have a 200 pound WR and 330 pound DE who both run the same 40, what does that tell you?

Nothing, because various different SPD/ACL ratings get you to a given 40 time. Nevermind WEIGHT should be comming into affect in regards to both ratings [which implies STR would be needed in the eqation too].

As you can see, making things more realistic makes things more complicated. In my mind, ACL is based of Weight/STR anyways, and is a redundant statistic. If heavy guy has little strength, it goes to follow he will be slow getting up to speed. If he has a ton of strength, the penalty won't be as much.

Maddens problem is that there are TOO many ratings that step on eachother, so while this makes coding easy, it makes players wildly unrealistic. ACL should be equal to Weight/Strength, and SPD reflects top overall speed attainable. Problem solved.

[shttymcgee]

Quote: Originally Posted by gamerk2

Proving why a physics engine is badly needed for player movement. In theory, SPD = Max Speed, and ACL = How fast a player gets up to max speed. If you have a 200 pound WR and 330 pound DE who both run the same 40, what does that tell you? Nothing, because various different SPD/ACL ratings get you to a given 40 time. Nevermind WEIGHT should be comming into affect in regards to both ratings [which implies STR would be needed in the eqation too]. As you can see, making things more realistic makes things more complicated. In my mind, ACL is based of Weight/STR anyways, and is a redundant statistic. If heavy guy has little strength, it goes to follow he will be slow getting up to speed. If he has a ton of strength, the penalty won't be as much. Maddens problem is that there are TOO many ratings that step on eachother, so while this makes coding easy, it makes players wildly unrealistic. ACL should be equal to Weight/Strength, and SPD reflects top overall speed attainable. Problem solved.

Strength is obviously needed to get up to speed, but more strength doesn't necessarily equal faster acceleration.

The rate of twitch in the muscles, the ability of the individual to get through a full range of motion and the technique of the runner all play parts in how fast someone can acclerate.

40 times do not tell speed or acceleration, they just are just one method of how to infer what a persons speed or acceleration may be.

[DaBear23]

If two guys have the same 40 time then they should have the equal speed and acceleration. It should not matter if person A weigh 400 pound and person B weigh 100 pound. The simple fact is dat person a and b cover equal distance at the same time.

If devin Hester ran 4.40 and urlacher ran 4.40 then they should both have equal speed. If devin Hester have a 99 speed and 99 acceleration then urlacher should also have 99 speed and 99 acceleration. Urlacher should not have lower speed because he is a lb that weigh 250 pound.

I remember making a thread about the jump rating. Two TE with equal vertical, but yet one has 97 jump rating and the other TE has 77 jump rating.

If ea can't get something as simple as speed and jump rating right then what da hell can they get right.

[DCEBB2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by shttymcgee

Many players get faster before they start slowing down, sometimes its just a matter of being at a higher conditioning level. Why should their measurables begin to decline right away when they are continuing to develop as an athlete? I would love to see more about your projection project because my experience has shown otherwise. Of course, some players do lose some speed (due to injuries, changes in body composition, work ethic issues, etc) but many continue to develop towards their 30's.

Well it is my buddy's project and he hasn't published them online yet. I don't think he has the time, but I'll see what I can do. As for the higher conditioning level, we already have an attribute for that. It's called stamina. There must be some explanation for why football players decline. May have to do with the NFL schedule and the toll it takes on the body. Now, that was just an average I was citing. Some digress less and some more, but the average was .005 per accrued season. Unless I see some data otherwise I may have to continue to go with what I have found.