25 Reasons why Madden has lasted 25 years

[GiantBlue76]

Quote: Originally Posted by jpdavis82

I think the current dev team is putting Madden in a much better place than the game has been in years though. I think were a lot closer to the good years of Madden 92-05 than people realize.

Another year - wash, rinse, repeat.

Nothing personal JP, but there is absolutely nothing that's been done to suggest Madden will ever be done right. The game is broken from top to bottom, and in their attempts at countering exploits, they have simply piled crap on top of crap to the point where all you have is... well... CRAP!.

It's not going to change, and this year will be no different. There will be the usual marginal improvements that would take other more talented teams a week to complete, but seem to take this team years. There will be big gaping holes in the franchise mode, more bugs, terrible player movement, some over the top gimmick involving line play (kind of like the telepathic passing) and a whole big mess of money spent on marketing to the thousands of kids out there who don't know any better.

[jpdavis82]

Quote: Originally Posted by tazdevil20

Another year - wash, rinse, repeat. Nothing personal JP, but there is absolutely nothing that's been done to suggest Madden will ever be done right. The game is broken from top to bottom, and in their attempts at countering exploits, they have simply piled crap on top of crap to the point where all you have is... well... CRAP!. It's not going to change, and this year will be no different. There will be the usual marginal improvements that would take other more talented teams a week to complete, but seem to take this team years. There will be big gaping holes in the franchise mode, more bugs, terrible player movement, some over the top gimmick involving line play (kind of like the telepathic passing) and a whole big mess of money spent on marketing to the thousands of kids out there who don't know any better.

You don't think they will improve player movement or the in the trenches interactions?

[bigbob]

Quote:

But you are concussed if you don't think 2K had its fair share of crappy ideas: First person football where you have no feel for what's going on around you, the Crib where you could lounge around watching Sportscenter ads, and playing Steve-O which was....we don't even know.

Loved First Person Football, and loved the idea of the Crib even more.

[GiantBlue76]

Quote: Originally Posted by jpdavis82

You don't think they will improve player movement or the in the trenches interactions?

No, I don't. They will say that they will work on it, but it's going to require real work with real talent to emulate what the real NFL is and what that other (cough, cough) game was able to do. They've kicked this can down the line far too long, and with the current team they have, I do not believe they will be able to fix/enhance any of it properly. It will be spun with some new marketing slogan that will simply break the game in one area because they wanted to counter problems in another.When you have a house of cards, you can't suddenly turn it into a stable structure. You end up taking one card away to fill a weak spot, only creating another weak spot before the entire house caves in. This is most likely the reason why you have not seen a single tuner released for this game in 2 years. All of the other games have released them. Not Madden. if they touch anything, you'll get the whole house falling down. They know it, we know it, and they know that we know it. However, nothing needs to change. People buy the game and they only listen to the casual fan who wants to drink beer and curse out his buddy on the couch. They see only what they want to see and listen to only what they want to hear. The rest of you get ignored or "blocked".

[jpdavis82]

Quote: Originally Posted by tazdevil20

No, I don't. They will say that they will work on it, but it's going to require real work with real talent to emulate what the real NFL is and what that other (cough, cough) game was able to do. They've kicked this can down the line far too long, and with the current team they have, I do not believe they will be able to fix/enhance any of it properly. It will be spun with some new marketing slogan that will simply break the game in one area because they wanted to counter problems in another.When you have a house of cards, you can't suddenly turn it into a stable structure. You end up taking one card away to fill a weak spot, only creating another weak spot before the entire house caves in. This is most likely the reason why you have not seen a single tuner released for this game in 2 years. All of the other games have released them. Not Madden. if they touch anything, you'll get the whole house falling down. They know it, we know it, and they know that we know it. However, nothing needs to change. People buy the game and they only listen to the casual fan who wants to drink beer and curse out his buddy on the couch. They see only what they want to see and listen to only what they want to hear. The rest of you get ignored or "blocked".

If they aren't going to improve player movement or the in the trenches gameplay what exactly do you think they are going to work on? Only other things that I can see are Infinity Engine 2.0 or AI related. What do you think it will be? Also keep in mind this is the first year that the guys from the Sim Standard will have their input directly put into the development of the game. Last year by the time TSS guys saw the game it was well into development. I'm sure some of the feedback they got at last year's CD events was put into Madden 25.

Keep in mind I'm not a kid, I'm 30 years old and I'm trying to be as objective with you as possible so try to hear me out.

[GiantBlue76]

Quote: Originally Posted by jpdavis82

If they aren't going to improve player movement or the in the trenches gameplay what exactly do you think they are going to work on? Only other things that I can see are Infinity Engine 2.0 or AI related. What do you think it will be? Also keep in mind this is the first year that the guys from the Sim Standard will have their input directly put into the development of the game. Last year by the time TSS guys saw the game it was well into development. I'm sure some of the feedback they got at last year's CD events was put into Madden 25. Keep in mind I'm not a kid, I'm 30 years old and I'm trying to be as objective with you as possible so try to hear me out.

I'm not talking down to you JP, I'm simply stating my opinion (which differs from yours) and I'm supplying my rationale for that stance.

Also, I don't really think the TSS guys are going to have their voices heard. There have been TONS of guys going there over the years screaming about player movement and line interaction and NONE of it has ever surfaced in the game. Why should it now? If they were able to do it, they would have done it already. The truth is that they don't know HOW to do it. They want to keep the arcadey feel of Madden so that anyone can pick up the game and beat a football guru all while dancing into the end zone on 80 yard plays with their favorite players.

So let's recap...

In 2009 - Ian Cummings takes over Madden creative director and claims that he wants to make the most realistic simulation ever, put away the 2k comparisons, and take madden to the top of the mountain.

He introduces a 3 year plan. Madden 10 comes out, and while much improved, still pales in comparisons on the field, presentation wise and off the field to past games. Comments begin to surface that came from him - "Why would you want pass interference? How frustrating would it be if you had a long drive stall due to a PI call?". We also get 3 versions of "sideline catches", because apparently it had to be re-implemented every year.

Pro-Tak is introduced as a big group hug and is a colossal fail. Adaptive AI is introduced, but mysteriously pulled before release never to be seen again.

Madden 11 is released. Zero changes to franchise mode online and off, player movement is completely destroyed with the "locomotion" engine which removes the little footplanting they did have and makes players zig zag, swerve and run through the defense at will. Zone coverage doesn't work at all, ball physics and line interaction are atrocious. Run blocking is improved but still needs work. Presentation takes some more steps backwards and commentary is beyond embarrassing. More promises get made that M12 is going to be the game, since it is # 3 in the 3 year plan.

Madden 12 announced and brought in with the big feature of... Surprise onside kicks. Player movement is still terrible, suction blocking is improved. Zone defense is much better, but player warping, leaping linebackers and motion shifting are the worst of any sports game in 5 years. Every pass is intercepted or caught. Ball physics are claimed to be improved but are not any different. QB still throws the dying duck whenever he gets hit, the entire defense moves in unison when the pass button is pressed. Schedules and playoff scenarios are still broken and done wrong. Online communities are a fail and die off within 2 months. DPP is brought in and completely over done in order to purposely bring it to the forefront. Still missing most of the penalties, presentation is regresses with bad camera shots that look nothing like a real broadcast, commentary got worse with promise that new technology was being implemented for m13. Pro tak is removed completely and double hit tackles are finally introduced. Ian, Phil and others quit Tiburon altogether. 3 year plan fails and Cam Weber is now brought in...

Madden 13 is announced and team says "We are going BIG this year!". Weber states that the size of the gameplay team is doubled and that defense will be fun again. A new 3 year plan is announced (yet again). Nagasaki and Hiroshima are unleashed and a physics engine is released. "No two plays will ever be the same" is touted and motion shifting and bad clipping is now a thing of the past. 100s of videos surface after release showing this to be completely untrue. the truth comes out that the engine is simply a coat of paint on the existing animation system, which most people agree is terrible. Players still perform the exact same movements at the exact same time. Total control passing is introduced, even though 2k did it in 2003. The ball is still tethered to receivers which changes very little in that department. Route based passing still absent. 25 different pass trajectories are touted, yet most players still only can throw 2 or a mysterious 3rd one which sometimes surfaces. Zone coverage is dumbed down, and a new moniker is used to spin the new gimmick. "Throw your receiver open!" - which does not mean what the madden developers think it does. This allows altering of receiver routes through mental telepathy, allowing the defense to always be in the wrong position against saavy players. Developers try to claim that player movement (i.e, zig zag/swerve running) has been tuned - yet it is exactly the same as the year before. Basically a flat out lie as developers admitted to some insiders that nothing was done on this. Line interaction is atrocious yet again, with no changes at all. Curls, comebacks, outs and hooks are now the new weapon on offense. Ball physics are still wonky and the physics engine that was supposed to make this the "most realistic madden ever" are laughably bad. Players explode away from each other as they light a stick of dynamite between them. Weight and momentum still don't matter as players just magically recover from being horizontal, only to run like they are on a turntable. Tackling animations are exactly the same except for players falling over each other after the play. Penalties, challenge system - all completely untouched. Linebackers still can intercept passes 20 yards down field but it's not as bad as before. Franchise mode is scrapped and a bug-ridden, poorly designed career mode is put in place. Developers crap on complaining consumers and/or simply block them when the mode is questioned and/or critiqued. Many facets of past Maddens are removed with some added back in as patches only to not work correctly. Salary cap glitch ruins many CCMs. Online leagues have no commissioner options, transaction logs or any info telling them about player retirements or cuts. XP system and practice are poorly designed with no incentive to do any practice other than the one that provides the most points. Another year of no tuning sets yet again.

I'm sure I missed some things, but these immediately come to my mind right away. Now - you tell me why I should agree with you that this team is magically going to deliver anything worth raving about...

[jpdavis82]

Quote: Originally Posted by tazdevil20

I'm not talking down to you JP, I'm simply stating my opinion (which differs from yours) and I'm supplying my rationale for that stance. Also, I don't really think the TSS guys are going to have their voices heard. There have been TONS of guys going there over the years screaming about player movement and line interaction and NONE of it has ever surfaced in the game. Why should it now? If they were able to do it, they would have done it already. The truth is that they don't know HOW to do it. They want to keep the arcadey feel of Madden so that anyone can pick up the game and beat a football guru all while dancing into the end zone on 80 yard plays with their favorite players. So let's recap... In 2009 - Ian Cummings takes over Madden creative director and claims that he wants to make the most realistic simulation ever, put away the 2k comparisons, and take madden to the top of the mountain. He introduces a 3 year plan. Madden 10 comes out, and while much improved, still pales in comparisons on the field, presentation wise and off the field to past games. Comments begin to surface that came from him - "Why would you want pass interference? How frustrating would it be if you had a long drive stall due to a PI call?". We also get 3 versions of "sideline catches", because apparently it had to be re-implemented every year. Pro-Tak is introduced as a big group hug and is a colossal fail. Adaptive AI is introduced, but mysteriously pulled before release never to be seen again. Madden 11 is released. Zero changes to franchise mode online and off, player movement is completely destroyed with the "locomotion" engine which removes the little footplanting they did have and makes players zig zag, swerve and run through the defense at will. Zone coverage doesn't work at all, ball physics and line interaction are atrocious. Run blocking is improved but still needs work. Presentation takes some more steps backwards and commentary is beyond embarrassing. More promises get made that M12 is going to be the game, since it is # 3 in the 3 year plan. Madden 12 announced and brought in with the big feature of... Surprise onside kicks. Player movement is still terrible, suction blocking is improved. Zone defense is much better, but player warping, leaping linebackers and motion shifting are the worst of any sports game in 5 years. Every pass is intercepted or caught. Ball physics are claimed to be improved but are not any different. QB still throws the dying duck whenever he gets hit, the entire defense moves in unison when the pass button is pressed. Schedules and playoff scenarios are still broken and done wrong. Online communities are a fail and die off within 2 months. DPP is brought in and completely over done in order to purposely bring it to the forefront. Still missing most of the penalties, presentation is regresses with bad camera shots that look nothing like a real broadcast, commentary got worse with promise that new technology was being implemented for m13. Pro tak is removed completely and double hit tackles are finally introduced. Ian, Phil and others quit Tiburon altogether. 3 year plan fails and Cam Weber is now brought in... Madden 13 is announced and team says "We are going BIG this year!". Weber states that the size of the gameplay team is doubled and that defense will be fun again. A new 3 year plan is announced (yet again). Nagasaki and Hiroshima are unleashed and a physics engine is released. "No two plays will ever be the same" is touted and motion shifting and bad clipping is now a thing of the past. 100s of videos surface after release showing this to be completely untrue. the truth comes out that the engine is simply a coat of paint on the existing animation system, which most people agree is terrible. Players still perform the exact same movements at the exact same time. Total control passing is introduced, even though 2k did it in 2003. The ball is still tethered to receivers which changes very little in that department. Route based passing still absent. 25 different pass trajectories are touted, yet most players still only can throw 2 or a mysterious 3rd one which sometimes surfaces. Zone coverage is dumbed down, and a new moniker is used to spin the new gimmick. "Throw your receiver open!" - which does not mean what the madden developers think it does. This allows altering of receiver routes through mental telepathy, allowing the defense to always be in the wrong position against saavy players. Developers try to claim that player movement (i.e, zig zag/swerve running) has been tuned - yet it is exactly the same as the year before. Basically a flat out lie as developers admitted to some insiders that nothing was done on this. Line interaction is atrocious yet again, with no changes at all. Curls, comebacks, outs and hooks are now the new weapon on offense. Ball physics are still wonky and the physics engine that was supposed to make this the "most realistic madden ever" are laughably bad. Players explode away from each other as they light a stick of dynamite between them. Weight and momentum still don't matter as players just magically recover from being horizontal, only to run like they are on a turntable. Tackling animations are exactly the same except for players falling over each other after the play. Penalties, challenge system - all completely untouched. Linebackers still can intercept passes 20 yards down field but it's not as bad as before. Franchise mode is scrapped and a bug-ridden, poorly designed career mode is put in place. Developers crap on complaining consumers and/or simply block them when the mode is questioned and/or critiqued. Many facets of past Maddens are removed with some added back in as patches only to not work correctly. Salary cap glitch ruins many CCMs. Online leagues have no commissioner options, transaction logs or any info telling them about player retirements or cuts. XP system and practice are poorly designed with no incentive to do any practice other than the one that provides the most points. Another year of no tuning sets yet again. I'm sure I missed some things, but these immediately come to my mind right away. Now - you tell me why I should agree with you that this team is magically going to deliver anything worth raving about...

If player movement and the trenches gameplay are not addressed in Madden 25 I will agree with you 110%. I think Madden 13 should be taken as simply an attempt to innovate, they gave us the Infinity Engine and completely reworked their Career mode with CCM. They also gave us a new commentary team and a new musical score and theme for Madden 13 and the future Madden's to come. Granted not all of this worked out the way I'm sure they or most of us wanted it to, but you can't say they aren't trying to do things differently now. If they don't build upon in Madden 25 what they tried to innovate with in Madden 13 than this is a non issue and you can disregard what I'm saying.

In the meantime I will stand by this statement until proven otherwise. IF Madden 25 properly addresses player movement and the between the trenches gameplay, they will have reason for us to at least consider checking Madden 25 out and to have hope for the future of Madden. If they don't, Madden 25 will be a failure and Madden needs to shut it down until they can do it right.

[NYJin2011tm]

This is what cracks me up...they never expand on what they introduce in the game. They scrap it and are always starting over. That's why the game never gets anywhere imo.