Buddy Ryan's Goaline Defense

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by sgibs7

madden will never be real life because its a game. thats a double edge sword though because while thinking that way will allow more leeway for mistakes and flaws it also prevents progressive growth of the title. I guess there needs to be a middle ground. i cant say I have ever come across what you are referring to with the alignment issues. I know that there are a some formations where issues still happen (espicially if you man align) would man align twice fix that problem for you? I feel like it will reset things and you wouldn't lose more then 1 second of time for adjustments. or is that the point. you dont want to have to man align twice...the game should just do it? (but if the resolution is to man align twice...why wouldnt you just man align twice and just resolve the issue?) I'm officially in a vortex and I cant get out

Lets just for a moment ignore how anyone chooses to play Madden and forget that Madden is a video game, we will just focus on football being played by real people. In another thread you stated you asked Ochocinco about adaptive AI and he told you it's needed because real people would have the sense to adjust, without coaching. Ok, so with real people playing football, on virtually any level, there would be some element of individual problem solving, so with a no huddle/hurry up style offense, the defenders are more or less left to their devices for adjustments.

Now, let's focus back on Madden the video game and the lacking adaptive AI and AI in general for CPU controlled players. Using no huddle/hurry up style offense in Madden, you now have defenders left to their own devices for adjustment too but those devices are "broken" or nonexistent. Can you see how that is an issue?

Lastly, "it's a video game" is not a reason or excuse because other video games have better adaptive AI and general AI where CPU players are capable of making better adjustments.

[sgibs7]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

Lets just for a moment ignore how anyone chooses to play Madden and forget that Madden is a video game, we will just focus on football being played by real people. In another thread you stated you asked Ochocinco about adaptive AI and he told you it's needed because real people would would have the sense to adjust, without coaching. Ok, so with real people playing football, on virtually any level, there would be some element of individual problem solving, so with a no huddle/hurry up style offense, the defenders are more or less left to their devices for adjustments. Now, let's focus back on Madden the video game and the lacking adaptive AI and AI in general for CPU controlled players. Using no huddle/hurry up style offense in Madden, you now have defenders left to their own devices for adjustment too but those devices are "broken" or nonexistent. Can you see how that is an issue? Lastly, "it's a video game" is not a reason or excuse because other video games have better adaptive AI and general AI where CPU players are capable of making better adjustments.

When I play Madden I assume the role of the coach. The adjustments are available via hot routes and audibling to different plays and where I agree with you is that adaptive AI would be an AMAZING thing to have in the game.

Unfortunately we don't have it. (I dont think that makes no huddle broken at all. Plenty of things to do defensively to adjust to what your opponent is doing. Those adjustments have to be done by the user and not automatically done for you by the AI)

When do we start playing though? Do we just say...darn no adaptive AI so that means the game is terrible and we cant run no huddle.

the game is really good and it does a lot of things really well.

I don't know what you are trying to prove to me or what point you are trying to make to me.

I love the game. I love playing the game. I love the community around the game and I love the competition of the game.

Am I supposed to hate the game or not play it or limit things and create a ton of rules because the game falls short in some areas?

I just don't understand that point of view. At what point do we stop the complaining and just enjoy the current game that we have? Or is that not possible for whatever personal reasons we make up?

"its a video game line" is a hardo statement for both sides of the argument. you need both sides as well. You need the guy that says to push the limits - make it life like - make it as realistic as possible because that will push the game to new levels that were never imagined. At the same time there needs to be the guy that knows and understands that there are limitations because its a video game. Currently right now I dont think a video game could ever come close to the real thing...because its a game.

back to the original point...where is the line drawn in the sand when it comes to winning at all costs in Madden.

[Big FN Deal]

Here is the issue though Sgibs and it ties into the thread topic, if someone doesn't see the lack of things like adaptive AI as determining "the line" then football isn't the standard. If deficiencies in the program are dismissed as complaining, instead of considered important elements for implementing and using something like no huddle/hurry up as realistically as possible in-game, then nothing is off limits. Whatever is effective at getting the win is fair game. So if you want to declare a video game a free for all, cool, have at it but then you shouldn't use real life football as any sort of barometer or justification, just whenever it suits you.

You posted what Buddy Ryan did as some precedent for "winning at all cost" in real football but what Buddy Ryan did is cheating in real football, according to the rules and he was fined for it. So if you persist on falling back on Madden being a video game, not real life football as the crux of this thread, then I don't understand why you would start off referencing real life football in the first place.

[sgibs7]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

Here is the issue though Sgibs and it ties into the thread topic, if someone doesn't see the lack of things like adaptive AI as determining "the line" then football isn't the standard. If deficiencies in the program are dismissed as complaining, instead of considered important elements for implementing and using something like no huddle/hurry up as realistically as possible in-game, then nothing is off limits. Whatever is effective at getting the win is fair game. So if you want to declare a video game a free for all, cool, have at it but then you shouldn't use real life football as any sort of barometer or justification, just whenever it suits you. You posted what Buddy Ryan did as some precedent for "winning at all cost" in real football but what Buddy Ryan did is cheating in real football, according to the rules and he was fined for it. So if you persist on falling back on Madden being a video game, not real life football as the crux of this thread, then I don't understand why you would start off referencing real life football in the first place.

Madden is a football video game. It's not real life.

[sgibs7]

Quote: Originally Posted by baller7345

No huddling is perfectly fine when you don't abuse audible boosting which makes the offensive players rush to the line much faster than normal. This creates moments when the defensive player is caught in situations that are completely beyond his control because there is no way to speed up the defensive players when it comes to returning them to their correct alignment. I'm probably in the minority of the sim crowd here but if you want to run a sugar huddle all game or even add in some fast paced no huddle from time to time then go ahead. However if you are using flaws/glitches in the game to make the no huddle more effective than it normally would then you aren't using the no huddle in a sim manner. Play calling is a whole other issue that comes up with the no huddle that I won't even begin to get into but as long as it has roots in real football I don't mind a shallow playcall sheet from the other player. Its when your offense and defense is more based on the game of Madden than real football that I begin to cringe.

anything thats a glitch (has no counter - blocking FGs - offense can't do anything to prevent the blocked kick - slide protect etc) shouldnt be allowed IMO.

the defense has the same amount of time to make adjustments as does the offense in the no huddle period. my experience with the game has always been that in most instances the offense gets to the LOS last.

but I'm with you about the blatant glitches.

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by sgibs7

Madden is a football video game. It's not real life.

OK, so why did you reference something that happened in real life football in the first place? You are acting as if I came into some thread strictly about video game football tactics and starting referencing real life football out the blue but I didn't. I don't post in video game football strategy threads that aren't based on real life football, so if this is one, I apologize but the thread title confused me. You seem to be saying that Buddy Ryan cheated but got away with on the field so should that be ok in Madden too.

"

I'm asking about a professional coaching strategy's decisions and how it relates to Madden. Many people believe there is some sort of unwritten code in how you are supposed to play. - no, no huddling - no quick snapping - no user catching - etc How does Buddy Ryans decision to literally cheat the game make people feel about their own Madden game? "

What it seems like is that you only want to reference real life football when it supports your point but when that's not the case, you fall back on "this is a video game". That's just my opinion, doesn't make it right, overall you seem like a chill dude I could hangout with, we just likely couldn't play Madden together though, lol.

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by sgibs7

would man align twice fix that problem for you? I feel like it will reset things and you wouldn't lose more then 1 second of time for adjustments. or is that the point. you dont want to have to man align twice...the game should just do it? (but if the resolution is to man align twice...why wouldnt you just man align twice and just resolve the issue?) I'm officially in a vortex and I cant get out

It would, but, yes, the PLAYERS should man-align. It's not a "I can't/won't do it" - and I think that's where you're missing my point.

I want a semblance of communication between players in the game. I want players with high AWR/PRC to see what's happening and "tell someone to get that guy". Or maybe I hear the captain on the field (if his AWR/PRC is high enough) say "timeout! timeout!" imploring me (as the coach) to call a timeout because we're about to get burned.

Something like that would be more organic and more lifelike, emulating the communication process that happens on every football field regardless of level without me having to God-mode everything.

You replied to Big that you take the role of coach. Well, the coach doesn't tell the DB to get on some guy in the middle of a no-huddle. The coach has to trust his leaders on the field. Trust his defensive QB, the MLB, to get things set up if he sees something horribly wrong.

I wouldn't mind even if the MLB called t.o. That's what happens on the field sometimes, players calling t.o. if they can't get aligned or get confused.

Things like that are what I want to see. It's not a matter of me being too lazy or not wanting to use the controller. It's a matter of wanting more organic awareness, understanding and football intelligence represented in the game as well as a differentiating of abilities and less god-moding of the action.

I wouldn't want a 50 AWR MLB to do what Farrior, Willis, Cushing, etc could do in terms of instincts. I want the 50 AWR MLB to be asleep at the switch. I want the 60 PRC DB to not realize what's happening while a 90 PRC DB might catch it and adjust his alignment even if the MLB doesn't.

And the "it's a video game" argument is tired no matter what side it's on. It's also used only for things like this and not on better graphics or better models or hitbox engines. But whenever emulating player understanding and behavioral recognition comes up "it's just a game".

Plus, FBPro 98 has done it. IN (Intelligence, the game's version of AWR) impacted the effectiveness of audibles, both in players making the correct audible, the effectiveness of fake audibles (i.e. the player might not get it's a fake and actually do something different based on his IN and DIscipline ratings), and the players understanding the audible. In 1998, an emulated system of players hearing the signal, processing the signal, and understanding what to do - or not - all based on ratings.

I think I'm more than reasonable in wanting what a 1998 computer game accomplished in a game on a "powerful console" 15 years later in a game that has, what, 20? ratings + DPP, vs a game that had 8.

[Big FN Deal]

Well stated KB and what I don't understand about Madden is this be everything at all times mentality. We can wear many hats in Madden but it shouldn't all be at the same time, so I don't understand why the game would be designed to be Coach and all 11 players at once.

When the User is wearing the Coaches "hat", calling plays, pregame planning, personnel changes, etc, should be relegated to off the field and when the User is controlling ONE player, then that needs to be on the field, limited to that one player. Madden is designed like some real time User play editor, which is a cool video game concept I guess but it's not playing football in the game. I don't want anyone being preventing from playing Madden that way if they enjoy it, I just want some way to play as close to real football as possible in the game. I can't for the life of me figure out how that is complaining or asking for too much from a NFL simulation video game.

On topic, the funny thing is that as a Coach in Madden, you can't "cheat" because all they do is call plays. The "cheating" ability in Madden comes into play with User control of the players and the ability to edit plays on the field, which I don't classify as coaching because real coaches can't do that. Preplay adjustments how they are implemented in Madden are just something EA Tiburon made up because I can't think of any coach or player in football that can designate what each player should do, at the LOS in real time. In fact, that is at least one of the reasons the audio communication to the sideline/coordinators booth, is shut off at some point for those on the field.