Yair Rodriguez cut from the UFC.

[MacGowan]

Quote: Originally Posted by aholbert32

Even if they do I think Leslie’s case is pretty weak. What frustrates me is there is nothing really stopping ufc fighters from starting a union anymore. The Fertittas are gone. Dana has stated publicly that WME has no objection to fighters establishing a union given that WME negotiated with unions in all of their other businesses. The problem is organizing. All of these potential unions haven’t been able to find it one champion or high level fighter to draw people to join the union other than Cyborg. Also Smith’s argument is bull****. She had one fight on her deal. They offered her more money to fight Ladd who was overweight. She countered with a 50% raise and a contract extension. They paid her and released her. In fact, they didn’t even have to pay her but they did. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I'm a bit too drunk to debate the cutting of leslie smith which i think is BS and illegal (at least it damn well should be) But if California just see her as an employee that will have massive ramifications alone. regardless of her case.

[p_rushing]

Quote: Originally Posted by MacGowan

I'm a bit too drunk to debate the cutting of leslie smith which i think is BS and illegal (at least it damn well should be) But if California just see her as an employee that will have massive ramifications alone. regardless of her case.

They didn't cut her. They paid her for her fight, even though it got canceled. That was her last fight on contract.

With contracts, they can cut you at anytime. They need to argue different points or stop signing those contracts.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[aholbert32]

Quote: Originally Posted by MacGowan

I'm a bit too drunk to debate the cutting of leslie smith which i think is BS and illegal (at least it damn well should be) But if California just see her as an employee that will have massive ramifications alone. regardless of her case.

LOL. Respond when you are less drunk but I really dont know how they did her wrong. She was on her last fight and was paid her full purse after refusing to take a fight (justifiably so).

I also dont know how massive the ramifications would be. Other than possible Unemployment benefits, I dont know what she would gain. They already have the right to create a union. Workers Comp isnt likely. Even Unemployment is tricky because CA law is written for sports that have seasons and MMA doesnt have seasons.

[MacGowan]

ok, sober now! haha!

I wanna break this discussion into two things.

BLUE: Is Leslie Smith's case for her contract not being renewed due to her unionising weak? did the UFC do anything legaly wrong?
GREEN: Should/Will The National Labor Relations Board/NLRB see Leslie Smith as an employee or a private contractor to the UFC?

Let's start off with GREEN:
Here's a link for the WHY it would be earth shattering if the NLRB sees Leslie Smith as an employee. Because it would mean that all the UFC fighters are employees. MMAJUNKIE LINK

Quote:

“They treat us like employees, but they don’t give us benefits like employees,” Dillashaw said. “It’s kind of crazy when you think about it. We have to tell them where we’re at at all times so USADA can show up and drug test us, but we don’t get health benefits.

Quote:

“Listen, they’re independent contractors,” Coker said in June. “How they’re forced to wear a uniform, to this day, still baffles me. It should be against the labor laws or something.”

Quote:

if the employment classification of UFC fighters was ever successfully challenged, it could mean major change for the industry leader. “One consequence for the UFC is if they’re misclassifying employees as independent contractors, then they owe the IRS a lot of money,”

Now this has NOTHING to do with Leslie Smith's case being weak, and ONLY to do with if the NLRB sees her as an employee. To determine that they will look at her contract and how it's being enforced.

Quote:

The way to look at it is, how much does the organization control these folks, and how much freedom do they have to run their own business? You need to look at the totality of the circumstances. Ask yourself, is this person in business for themselves, or do they rely on someone else whose rules they have to follow?”

MMAFIGHTING:

Quote:

She said they are on track to get the 30 percent of UFC fighters to sign cards they need in order to bring that to the NLRB, which would trigger the process of determining whether UFC fighters are misclassified as independent contractors. The deadline for the signatures, Smith said, is Feb. 12, 2019.

MMAFIGHTING

Now I'm no lawyer, but to me it's pretty clear that they run the fighters like employees but classify them as private contractors. Now if that is legal or not, is up to the NLRB to decide. But is it right or not? it's effing disgusting if you ask me.






BLUE:
Now this one is a bit different. I saw the MMABEAT was discussing this: https://youtu.be/ZStCktsCSnI?t=32m20s
I really want you guys to listen to what Luke is saying here, it's a quick little thing (like 40 seconds), but he's basically saying (and he's no lawyer either) that you can do something that follows the rules and is "legal" but still punishable by the NLRB.

Luke Thomas: You're asking did they follow the letter of the law... My reading of it is probably so, but I don't think the two are mutually exclusive, I think you can actually do what you are contractually allowed to do, and they can...
Imagine if they have a secret tape recording, and I'm literally positing something totally imaginary.

Ariel Helwani: Yeah

Luke Thomas: But, imagine they have a secret tape recording of Dana White, Sean Shelby saying; Alright, this is a great way to cut her off from her knees...

Ariel Helwani: But that changes everything.

Luke Thomas: Right, but here's my point.. I realise you'd have to have that evidence, but you would still be taking the same legal path to get rid of her. You'd just be having extra evidence to show that the motivation behind it was..


It's funny because minutes before this snippet, the leading journalist Ariel Helwani is saying on air with Luke that of course they got rid of her for unionising, but he doesn't think the UFC did anything legally wrong? eeeeeh? it's like saying I didn't break the law cuz you can't prove it.

I mean imagine how that would work. Don't like gay, black, hispanic people in your company? just find some reason to fire them. It's well within your legal rights to do so. Don't like unionising in your factory? say "sorry we can't renew your contract". it's all legal. But the NLRB can look at it and go "this smells fishy as F" and punish you for it. if your whole company is white men, or all the unionisers have been "unfortunately let go"... one falls under discriminatory laws, and the other under union busting laws, but you see the picture.

if Leslie smith was let go for not fighting at catchweight, that is effed up and could be illegal (if she's considered an employee). if Leslie Smith was let go for unionising (if she's considered an employee), that is illegal under the NLRA.

The damn woman is on a 3 win streak at Bantamweight (1 loss at catchweight against the P4P greatest female fighter ever). She beat Rin Nakai who is at 20-2 for christ sakes. But the UFC let her go, cuz "well we just don't want any rowdy Bantamweights in our stacked Female Bantamweight division".

Right now I do believe Spearhead is trying to map out how rare it is for the UFC to do what they did (pay out a contract). if they can point to only a very few times this has happened it will strengthen their cause.

Quote:

Middlebrook wrote in the complaint. “ZUFFA, with the termination of Ms. Smith, has delivered an unlawful message to the remainder of its fighter employees, which is: dare to form, join or assist a union and you too will accompany Ms. Smith not fighting in the UFC. This message contravenes the very purpose of the NLRA and ZUFFA cannot be allowed to continue flouting the Act. No person or entity is above the law.”

MMAFIGHTING

[aholbert32]

Great post. I see why you couldnt have done it while drunk. LOL.

I'll take it piece by piece:

Health Benefits: One, there is no guarantee that the UFC would offer "health benefits" simply because someone is considered an employee. Two, if they did there is no guarantee that the UFC would offer policies that were affordable for the average fighter to use. Three, the UFC already offers healthcare related to injuries that occur while training or during a fight. Additional healthcare would cover their families and injuries outside of work (which is a good thing). This wouldnt be a huge loss for the UFC from a money perspective.

Uniform: If Smith's case relies primarily on the uniform, I would bet that the UFC would just roll back the Reebok deal (which only has 2 yrs remaining on it) and either make the Reebok gear optional (with higher incentives to wear it) or attempt to terminate it.

Contract: "Control" when it comes to a sports league isnt looked at the same as control when it comes to a certain job. Smith's best arguments are that the USADA drug testing and the uniform. The Uniform is a strong one but it can be resolved by a roll back. The USADA testing is also strong because they are requiring fighters to be available for testing at all times. A counter argument is that given the nature of the sport and its danger that this is a necessary component of the sport.

Other signs of control like control over the contractor's schedule are less strong. The UFC has no control over when they train but it does have control over when they fight and press obligations.

Smith: Here is the problem with your Smith analysis. You keep forgetting that she tried to leverage Ladd missing weight into a contract extension with a raise.
She didnt ask for more money for that fight (which the UFC and Ladd were willing to give her). She didnt say "lets move the fight to another event where she makes weight". She tried to strongarm the UFC giving her a new contract by refusing to accept a catchweight fight (which hundreds of fighters have done in the past.)

Kajan Johnson has been more vocal than Smith about Speahead, is Spearhead's VP and he is still employed. Al Iaquinta is their secretary and he is still employed. She also isnt the first fighter to be cut coming off a win or for refusing a fight. She tried to play a hand she didnt have and the UFC called her on it.

Middlebrook is her attorney and has been active about trying to unionize fighters so his quote isnt surprising. I just dont agree with it because the UFC still has Iaquinta and Kajan on the payroll. They still have Dillashaw and Cain and GSP on the roster and they attempted to start one a few years ago. They still have Cyborg on the roster and she has been vocal about wanting a union.

Unions: I think the press overestimates the power that the Unions will have over the UFC. Even if they organize that doesnt mean that the UFC will just roll over. They will still have to negotiate and that wont be easy. Best case scenario, we may see a higher minimum salary and maybe a pay increase for mid tier fighters.

But this assumption that Ariel and others are pushing that it will be a game changer is false. The only weapon UFC fighters will have as a union is to strike. The difference between this and team sports is that the higher paid fighters are the draws (not the teams) and have no incentive to strike. Think about it this weekends card:

There are 12 fights. On the card, I'd argue Holm, Overeem, Whittaker, Romero. RDA and Colby will be paid well and are less likely to strike. Lets say that the rest of the card strikes...would they cancel the card?

Probably not. The UFC would call up some young fighters from the minor leagues and proceed with a 8 fight card and I dont think they would lose a single PPV or ticket sale.

[MacGowan]

Quote: Originally Posted by aholbert32

Great post. I see why you couldn't have done it while drunk. LOL.

Haha! Thanks, yeah my typos are bad enough when I'm sober.

Quote: Originally Posted by aholbert32

Health Benefits: One, there is no guarantee that the UFC would offer "health benefits" simply because someone is considered an employee. Two, if they did there is no guarantee that the UFC would offer policies that were affordable for the average fighter to use. Three, the UFC already offers healthcare related to injuries that occur while training or during a fight. Additional healthcare would cover their families and injuries outside of work (which is a good thing). This wouldnt be a huge loss for the UFC from a money perspective.

I'm way out of my league with this. I have no idea what sort of healthcare they currently provide. What legal ramifications a mislabelling of employees as independent contractors would have for any past injuries they could have been legally obliged to deal with, etc.

What is a hell of a lot more important to me is that IF all fighters are employees they can form a union. if they form a union they can actual issue a list of things they feel they need to provide their service to the UFC. I'd love to see a future where fighters feel their health is taken care of by their employer. Jeez I got a million times better healthcare than they do, and all i do is sit on my computer.

Quote: Originally Posted by aholbert32

Uniform: If Smith's case relies primarily on the uniform, I would bet that the UFC would just roll back the Reebok deal (which only has 2 yrs remaining on it) and either make the Reebok gear optional (with higher incentives to wear it) or attempt to terminate it.

Smith's case has little to do with the uniforms. When they mention it, it will probably only be to further strengthen their claim that she was an employee, and not a independent contractor, as she is made to wear a uniform, independent contractors aren't.

With the Reebok deal it's something else, and again I'm be out of my league here too. But if she is deemed an employee, then a union can be more likely formed. if a union is formed they could demand the uniforms eff the eff off, and that they can go back to sponsorships, or that they get a better deal in a possible future deal, (with someone else than Reebok, cuz they must no doubt have regretted the day they signed with the UFC).

Quote: Originally Posted by aholbert32

The Uniform is a strong one but it can be resolved by a roll back.

but the UFC can't just "roll back uniforms" and now all of a sudden Leslie Smith was never an employee mislabelled as a independent contractor. If she WAS an employee at the UFC, and IF she was likely not renewed because of her unionising efforts, then that opens up a can of worms. Hell it opens up a can of worms if she was just an employee, because it means that all UFC fighters have been employees for a while, and that means the union efforts are legit, and union fighters who are "not renewed" or just magically thrown to the waysides have a legal path to take.

If the UFC wants to then make fighters independent contractors again, well it wouldn't be just switch to flip back, and it would be an enormous win JUST to get the uniforms out. imagine how much money some of these fighters could make, It would almost be a bigger win short term than having the union itself. And it would be because of Leslie Smith sticking her neck out.

Quote: Originally Posted by aholbert32

The USADA testing is also strong because they are requiring fighters to be available for testing at all times. A counter argument is that given the nature of the sport and its danger that this is a necessary component of the sport.

Tell that to Bellator. UFC, a private company has decide this was best for their business, not necessary for the sport in general.

Quote: Originally Posted by aholbert32

Smith: Here is the problem with your Smith analysis. You keep forgetting that she tried to leverage Ladd missing weight into a contract extension with a raise. She didnt ask for more money for that fight (which the UFC and Ladd were willing to give her). She didnt say "lets move the fight to another event where she makes weight". She tried to strongarm the UFC giving her a new contract by refusing to accept a catchweight fight (which hundreds of fighters have done in the past.)

Her recollection of the events on the MMA HOUR was a little more graceful. She's been difficult in the past, But I also get a feeling that when a fighter Yair/Pettis gives them a counter-offer with the knowledge that the UFC is desperate, the UFC, out of what seems like a principle; cuts off their nose to spite their face.

You could also view it this way: She knew the UFC did not want to renew her contract because of her unionising. So she said "hey I'll fight, if you guys want me back after this fight, are we cool with this?".

And the UFC didn't say, "sit down" "you're cut". they paid her out. which I'm surprised that people say is them fulfilling their contract. because to me it looks more like they just paid her some money to not have to deal with her. Which is very unlike the UFC.

Quote: Originally Posted by aholbert32

Middlebrook is her attorney and has been active about trying to unionize fighters so his quote isnt surprising. I just dont agree with it because the UFC still has Iaquinta and Kajan on the payroll. They still have Dillashaw and Cain and GSP on the roster and they attempted to start one a few years ago. They still have Cyborg on the roster and she has been vocal about wanting a union.

As I said, you don't (and neither should you) have to point to all union friendly fighters who have not been let go. Union busting tactics were not created yesterday, and many companies have become pretty good at cutting the head off the snake.

• Did Leslie Smiths unionising efforts affect her relationship to the point of a contract not being renewed?
• Is the UFC actively trying to shut down unionising efforts?
• Are they employees?

if so... if they did this by perfectly legal means, it's still illegal. IF the fighters are employees. Like Luke Thomas said; if there was a secret tape. so now we are discussing evidence and not motive. I think a lot of us have the belief that the UFC is trying to shut this thing down. which would be illegal.

Quote: Originally Posted by aholbert32

Unions: I think the press overestimates the power that the Unions will have over the UFC. Even if they organize that doesnt mean that the UFC will just roll over. They will still have to negotiate and that wont be easy. Best case scenario, we may see a higher minimum salary and maybe a pay increase for mid tier fighters. But this assumption that Ariel and others are pushing that it will be a game changer is false. The only weapon UFC fighters will have as a union is to strike. The difference between this and team sports is that the higher paid fighters are the draws (not the teams) and have no incentive to strike. Think about it this weekends card: There are 12 fights. On the card, I'd argue Holm, Overeem, Whittaker, Romero. RDA and Colby will be paid well and are less likely to strike. Lets say that the rest of the card strikes...would they cancel the card? Probably not. The UFC would call up some young fighters from the minor leagues and proceed with a 8 fight card and I dont think they would lose a single PPV or ticket sale.

I agree with most of these points.
yes they would have to fight. and how easy of a fight would be up to how many people sign the cards. If 50, 60, 70, 80% end up in the union by 2020, then they would have a lot stronger bargaining chip. But that path is unforeseen. Maybe the Smith case does open up a whole lot of things, maybe there is a snowball effect where people feel it's no longer tabu to join. it's like a party; the more people who are at the party, the more people are coming to the party.

Also if they sign the cards, and THEN become big stars, that also something you have to take to account. Then the big stars could be considered strikebreakers if they go forward without the union.

But all of this is written from a Norwegian from a nation with a strong union background and that is still social-democratic. I honestly think that the real reason behind the lack of unionising effort in MMA is not because of fear. It's because of the current political climate and the kinds of people who are fighters. the world is turning RIGHT, unions are weaker than ever. even the act of unionising is often considered communist or snow-flaky liberal. These fighters have little love for people who want things without blood, sweat, and tears, even to the point of shooting themselves in the foot. They have carved out money for their family by punching people in the face. they're god damn modern day gladiators.

Do you think say Mike Perry thinks he needs a union? naw, he's good as long as he has his guns, and fists, and grit. He's not a commie bastard. Of course he'll end up poor, fat, and with TBI. But by the time he realises he's made that horrible mistake it will be too late, and the UFC can suck some more blood off these youngguns eager to die on the shield of manhood.


Got a little too real at the end there.
Sorry for the wall of text, and thank for a great post aholbert!

[aholbert32]

"but the UFC can't just "roll back uniforms" and now all of a sudden Leslie Smith was never an employee mislabelled as a independent contractor. If she WAS an employee at the UFC, and IF she was likely not renewed because of her unionising efforts, then that opens up a can of worms. Hell it opens up a can of worms if she was just an employee, because the means that all UFC fighters have been employees for a while, and that means the union efforts are legit, and union fighters who are "not renewed" or just magically thrown to the waysides have a legal path to take. "

They actually can. They would just have to pay for the period that they mislabelled her. The problem with her case is the uniforms is the strongest argument she has and the unis have only been in effect for 3 yrs. So thats a rollback of 3yrs for when it comes to the tax obligation.

With the exception of fight days and press obligations (which as a midcard fighter she hasnt had to do alot of) she controls her schedule. ****, she actually decides when she fights. If the UFC offers her a spot on the Boise card...she can say no and suggest a card that works better for her schedule. Most fighters do that anyway.

Also, I'm not sure if losing the uniforms is as big of a win as you think it is. Losing the Unis doesnt mean that they automatically get sponsors back. Employment status has no bearing on whether the UFC allows sponsors to be shown during its fights or on its air. So if the UFC wanted to play hard ball it could easily say "fighters are free to wear what ever the commission allows but no sponsors are permitted.

"Tell that to Bellator. UFC, a private company has decide this was best for their business, not necessary for the sport in general."

Most people in MMA think its a horrible thing that Bellator relies primarily on states that dont do random drug testing. The UFC does a ton of things that are best for its business most of the time but USADA isnt one of them. Fighters dont pay for USADA testing (if they form a union its possible that the UFC will ask that they share in the cost) and its hard to argue that the UFC didnt implement this testing in an effort to clean up the sport.

"You could also view it this way: She knew the UFC did not want to renew her contract because of her unionising. So she said "hey I'll fight, if you guys want me back after this fight".

And the UFC didn't say, "sit down" "you're cut". they paid her out. which I'm surprised that people say is them fulfilling their contract. because to me it looks more like they just paid her some money to not have to deal with her. Which is very unlike the UFC."

The problem with that is under her contract, they didnt have to pay her anything. They couldve cut her at anytime or for any reason. They paid her because they knew she would likely make the same argument that she is making today...that she was cut because she was a union organizer.

She was likely going to make that argument anyway though. If Ladd beat her and they decided not to resign her, she would say it was because of Spearhead and probably take the same steps she is today.


Maybe I'm naive but I just dont think WME cares as much about unions. Zuffa and the Ferttitas are actively anti union but thats not WME. The lack of one keeps costs down but I dont see them actively working to stop it other than one thing.....Trump.

The NLRB is now Republican controlled and White went out on a limb and spoke at Trump's convention. So even if Smith wins at the regional level, I doubt she wins at the national level as long as Trump is in office.

Once again....great post and this has been a good convo.

[p_rushing]

Her only shot is getting status as an employee or getting everyone in an union to get a CBA.

The UFC could not renew her contract because of the union stuff, but legally they have plenty of reasons. She wanted $100,000, she isn't that good, she doesn't draw fans, etc. So unless they have an email or tape of the UFC saying don't offer her a contract because of the unionizing, then they are covered.

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