Sorting out the Wingmen

[harryl]

Extracting this topic from the Campus Legends thread to it's own. Think it's a worthy ongoing topic unto itself.

Wingmen. Natural 3's, who could stretch to 4, or even downsize to 2. In the last month or so, we suddenly went from a desert with a few oases, to a bumper crop. And a bumper crop of budget-friendly options. Not to mention the budget-buster options like T-Mac, Mullin, Carmelo, etc. It's hard to figure out how to prioritize them.

In this first post, I'm just running through a list of some of the most popular options, even if I don't have/haven't played with their highest version.

Later on, I'm also very interested in talking about how to mix up these guys, insofar as trios playing 2, 3, and 4 together.

Hope this is of interest to folks. If you quote-reply this first post...PLEASE try to edit down well so that we don't get a ton of replies with full quotation of this stupidly longwinded post.

Quote: Originally Posted by GrimaceZ7

And you all are going to make me pick up an Ammy Battier. I loved the release on the Sapphire, and he's so versatile. I feel silly doing it though, because I have Hill, King, Kiki, Pierce, Worthy, Ammy Lebron and Ammy Giannis...and Butler and Kobe can always play the 3 as well.

I also have Hill, King, Kiki, Pierce, AM Giannis, DI Butler, and AM Kobe. I don't have Worthy or AM LBJ. But I have been debating on whether or not to lock in All-Around for USA Clyde, Historic Bucks for DI Moncrief, Historic Spurs for DI Manu, and intend to get and lock in Historic Pacers for DI Artest. (Have enough MT and sellable assets to get Artest while still locking in all the aforementioned, if I want.)

So I feel you on the "Who the F do I play at 3, 2, and Stretch 4?" dilemma.

DI Bernard King: I have a soft spot for King. But he's not rationally playable any more. Still very good, but there's no longer any reason to sacrifice a high-level outside shot and merely solid defense in exchange for his post game, athleticism, and midrange.

DI Kiki: Also a very intriguing mix of offensive capabilities. Post game with the elite outside shooting...but Pierce just trounces him in most respects.

DI Grant Hill: Hill's the one from this Reward Diamond SF trio that I think is still very compelling, because of his Ludicrous Speed, high-end defense, high-end midrange, very solid Open 3, Excellent playmaking, and elite dunking. Despite the lackluster badging.

DI Jimmy Buckets: Not actually an elite defender. "Merely" high-end. Bad Acceleration for this level. Still makes sense, but if I weren't counting on him/them to be a secondary playmaker, then Battier is heads and shoulders a better 3-and-D man.

AM LeBron: His athleticism is no longer impressive. Still very compelling as an overall package, but he's merely solid-to-good in terms of shooting and post game. Cold zones all over. Wonky shot. And not actually an elite defender.

AM Giannis: Giannis, I think, has to be given a place in a lineup. Even after this successive release of Battier, Pierce, Baylor, and PG13. Elite badging, minus HoF badges. Possessor of the rare Def Anchor + Floor General duo. Big man height with elite SG speed and ball security. High-end midrange game, and viable 3-ball. High-end defense that borders on elite, due to his height. Probably elite, because of his height, athleticism, and 92 Steal. Probably the best rebounder out of this whole bunch.

AM Kobe: Still compelling after all this time, but just falls short of being playable amongst this crowd. He's good in all offensive categories, but not high-level at anything but dunking and maybe post-game (for a guard with his speed). Bigger issue is that he's unimpressive on defense. You have to watch him to make sure he doesn't do stupid stuff. If I'm going to monitor someone for defensive missteps, it's going to be an offensive monster, which Kobe is not, any more.

DI Worthy: Worthy is a weird unicorn and totally compelling, despite the crap badging (only 4 regular, 0 HoF, and only Champ DNA/Clutch for Personality). I would think of him as sort of like the Diamond Draymond that we have not gotten, probably won't get, but trading off elite post defense and poor post offense for solid post defense and elite post offense. Maybe giving up some playmaking, but still at least respectable on that front, and losing high-end rebounding for good rebounding, but gaining monster finishing and high-level midrange.

DI Artest: He's been one of my goals all cycle, despite the very disappointing badging: no HoF Defensive Stopper, no Defensive Anchor...WTF, 2K? Still, he got very good Speed/Accel (88/86) and even got 80 Speed w/Ball. Coupled with very good shooting all around (89/85/85 Mids, 88/88/74 3pt), 94 Driving Layup, 75 Driving Dunk, 77 Post Fade, 76 Free Throw and 84 Draw Foul...you are not sacrificing much for his defense. And, Ratings-wise, his defense is godlike: Strength of a Center (93), Lat Quickness that's basically maxed (98), and very good Contest (87) that presumably can be made elite with a shoe.

DI USA Clyde: I don't think one has to go into much detail to make a case for USA Clyde. The question is merely one of cost. Otherwise, we're talking high-end basically across the board, only "merely" good at 3-point shooting, Strength, and handles. HoF badging to make him a finishing god. Solid personality badging. Hot Zones everywhere inside the arc. His collection isn't cheap, but it's not a bad one to lock in. I think DI Kidd is one of the finest PG's in the game. DI Rose was given decent defense and is a compact wrecking ball on offense. DI Wilt is not so special now that there are even more fantasy centers, but he's still generally quite athletic and is a force in the paint on both ends of the floor. AM Bird, I think, is basically a Diamond, and has truly elite, endgame-quality badging. Several of the Amethysts and Rubies are very solid, and fairly unique.

DI Moncrief: Nobody would play him at the 3, and prevailing opinion seems to push him at the 1, not the 2. But he's of big personal interest to me, and his worthiness of locking in the cost of Historic Bucks has direct relation to these other guys on the list. The things that still make him tempting is this combination: 91/93/86 speed ratings, with 98/88 LQ/Contest...and 85 Strength. The drawbacks are: unsellable, crap badging (no HoF Def Stopper, no Def Anchor...3 regular badges...SMH), only 6'3" and not really a natural PG because he doesn't have very good handles or playmaking, and doesn't have elite speed. Solid Open 3, high-end midrange, very good finishing ratings, viable post-fade. If the post-fade were money if boosted to 86, then that could be pretty interesting, as he's sort of a Gary Payton...but we're going to get a Diamond Payton, presumably. Got to keep that in mind, even if DI GP is expensive.

DI PG13: George is a no-brainer because he's already cheap on this first afternoon, will end up a bit cheaper during the next 48 hours. A natural, prototypical 3, who should be kept there, I think. Doesn't have elite speed for a 2, or good handles. Has height to play Stretch 4, but not the Strength, Rebounding, or Blocking. But, in the end: elite shooting, elite defense, and elite finishing. Perfect 3-and-D wing. He's basically a better version of Kawhi, trading the very good Steal for respectable handles and passing.

DI Carmelo: It bugs me that I can't afford him without selling off a ton of stuff. He's lackluster on D, but such an incredible, unicorn of a monster on offense. Elite PG-like speed and handles with PF height and strength. Elite midrange and outside shooting with elite post-fade and finishing. Only lacking a hot zone at the top of the arc. And the thing about Carmelo is not just the ratings, or the badging, but that he gets imbued with psychotic animations. If you get the ball to him in the low post, he does ridiculous things, automatically: with his Ruby, I've had him receive a pass at the low block and he just launched into a standing dunk from there. Got him a pass in the paint with two defenders on one side, and he automatically did a 180 in the air and put his body between his defenders and the ball for a crafty layup. I really should try and see if it's possible to liquidate stuff for him.

Still others to consider and detail. The McGrady cards, of course. PD Baylor. DI VC. DI Mullin. DI Durant. But I've already typed too much...

[ideaman81]

I have Melo, Butler, PP, PG, Hill, and King. Probably going to run Melo, PP, and PG on my main squad with Melo and PP badged a little to play stretch 4. PG I am going to play at the 2 off the bench with Melo at 3 and PP as my wing off the bench.

Butler's animations are great but he's not as versatile as PP and doesn't have the shooting to stack up with either. Hill is good but I think at this point I would only use him as a bigger PG but I have Penny. I also have a soft spot King but his animations aren't as good as Melo, PP, and PG. Not enough badge slots either and lacks the ratings I like to have in a stretch 4.

Pierce could fall out my lineup eventually. I'm not great with his release and it is slower than I would like. His defense and strength will always make him a consideration though.

I have Vince as my starting 3 who I only use as a pure wing and he is an absolute with the animations and badging. And then I have DS2 TMac as my starting 2. Definitely not the best bang for buck with what is out now but he was my end game card all year so he is staying.



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[Hustle Westbrook]

That Diamond Melo is nasty. Played some guy who had him and couldn't stop him for ****. On-ball, off-ball, zone, double teams etc. This card is unfair in the right hands.

[aLargeJewishGuy]

So I just pulled diamond melo, which prior to that I was running Tmac and PP at the 3 spots. I can easily put him in my lineup at 3 with Tmac moving to bench 2 replacing MJ.

Long run, I am going to sell Melo. I need to stockpile MT for the next Kobe. The question is when do I sell him? Right now? After packs disappear? Will he go up? If not, I could use him to finish MTO or at least til Kobe. Halp


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[Bubba13laze]

Good write up. I'm excited to see where this discussion goes. Scottie Pippen and Vince Carter both need to get into this discussion.

Right now I got Vince + Pierce then MJ and Pippen as my starting and bench 2+3. I feel like it's a no brainer I need to pick up that Pg13 but how do I possibly fit him in?? I also had intentions of getting artest to put him as a reserve 3. The debate is tough. There are so many elite wingmen cards now I have a bunch that aren't even in my rotation.

I think we will see Dr J and lebron diamonds released soon and it will make this discussion even more interesting. Likely one dimensional pure defensive stoppers or 3pt snipers don't cut it anymore. Everybody at the 3 can be strong 2way players. The only exception is I will accept poor defense from vince Carter or Melo because of how devastatingly strong they are on offense.

[ideaman81]

Dr. J was crazy enough last year. He figures to have 95 speed and 90+ 3 ball this year.


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[justlaze]

Nice thread harryl.
There is definitely room for discussion regarding the wingmen.

I think there is no question that Carmelo/Vinsanity/KD/T-Mac are the best guys if you wanna maximize offense.

I'm personally trying to mix things up and also like to rely on my TBT or my locked collection rewards (f.e. Worthy or Pippen)

Everybody needs to answer on his own if it's worth spending 400-600k for a player right away,while knowing there is still a lot to come. On my behalf, I say nope, hoard my MT and wait for the real deals like a Kobe, AI or Dr J with 5 HoF offensive badges.

I sold all my cards of value and hoping that the MVP theme is coming soon.

Until then I still making choices between: Vinsanity/Pippen/Worthy/PP/PG13/Rockets Drexler/Rockets T-mac/Grant Hill/AM Jordan.... I dont see the point of rushing on cards when you have solid guys and know a) there are way better ones to come than the current peak b) the current top cards are going to decrease in value

[Defconxx]

I was interested in Artest as well but PG24 is just as good rating wise and better animation wise (I've played with Ruby Artest a long time, slow, clunky shot and the slowest Shaq FT animation ever). And if you need pure 3&D Battier is the way to go (used him until I traded him for PP) for a fraction of the cost of the collection.

The revamped Lou Hudson is also in the conversation as a bench SG for those who locked him early, the boost in ratings he received makes him relevant again.

As far as stretch 4s go, a case could be made for Baylor. He will struggle to defend the likes of Porzingis, but they will struggle to guard him as well because of his explosiveness.