Would anyone else like to see Primary, Secondary, and even Tertiary positions?

[Taer]

The real issue is not "official position" but utilization.

LeBron's utilization in CPU/AI playcalling should be that of "Ball-handler" "Play-caller" and "Floor General". Regardless of his named position.

Da_Czar is working on updating everything but he still has a very long way to go and the new playbooks need to take into consideration today's fluidity v yesterday's rigidness, although when you realize that Magic Johnson was utilized as more than a traditional PG, you realize even 30 years ago such rigidness was an artificial construct.

If a team had 5 cloned Anthony Davis players, you don't think they would field all 5 on the court at one time? I do.

2k's AI needs work on recognizing the capabilities of its roster's players and then deploying those players to fully take advantage of them. Increasing the number of available positions won't do any good unless the playbooks are flexible enough to utilize every player's abilities.

Especially after trades in the modes like MC and MyGM/MyLeague.

[Real2KInsider]

Quote: Originally Posted by Shady Mike

I don't need to "show" you anything. When I actually WATCH the games I see LeBron Walking the ball up the court and initiating offensive sets while Kyrie Irving, JR Smith, and Kevin Love standing in the corner...thats a point guard to me...if you disagree with me show me game footage, not a link of starting lineups which is clearly irrelevant to the conversation...that's not what I made the thread for lol.

As has been stated, the primary ball handling responsibility =/= Point Guard. Offensive role does not define position. Who are these players matching up with on the other end of the court? The answer to this question is exactly why lineup data isn't "clearly irrelevant".

There is a reason the term "Point Forward" exists. LeBron James isn't a "point guard" (excluding his rookie season) anymore than Scottie Pippen was. Patrick Beverley, Derek Fisher, Mario Chalmers, Steve Kerr, etc are every bit point guards as much as John Stockton was.

[BluFu]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rashidi

As has been stated, the primary ball handling responsibility =/= Point Guard. Offensive role does not define position. Who are these players matching up with on the other end of the court? The answer to this question is exactly why lineup data isn't "clearly irrelevant". There is a reason the term "Point Forward" exists. LeBron James isn't a "point guard" (excluding his rookie season) anymore than Scottie Pippen was. Patrick Beverley, Derek Fisher, Mario Chalmers, Steve Kerr, etc are every bit point guards as much as John Stockton was.

Position you're slotted at =/= Position/Role you play within your offense.

It's funny you bring up the term "Point Forward" as it kind of goes against what you're saying. Point Forward is a term used to describe forwards that play a point guard role in their respective offense. It's in the name itself, Point Guard... Small Forward. LeBron isn't a point guard per se... but if you look at all of his seasons, there's not a single one of his teams he hasn't paced in assists.

And to say Bev, Fisher etc are every bit point guards as John Stockton is nonsensical. Those players mainly played/play as off-ball spot up shooters in their offense whereas Stockton initiated almost every play with very few spot up opportunities. The only similarity they have with Stockton is by position, not role.

[Shady Mike]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rashidi

As has been stated, the primary ball handling responsibility =/= Point Guard. Offensive role does not define position. Who are these players matching up with on the other end of the court? The answer to this question is exactly why lineup data isn't "clearly irrelevant". There is a reason the term "Point Forward" exists. LeBron James isn't a "point guard" (excluding his rookie season) anymore than Scottie Pippen was. Patrick Beverley, Derek Fisher, Mario Chalmers, Steve Kerr, etc are every bit point guards as much as John Stockton was.

Bro I'm really not going to get into it with you because THAT RIGHT THERE was the dumbest statement about basketball that I have EVER seen in my life.

I'd love to get this thread back on track because I think this is one that the Devs could look at and gain something from...

[Real2KInsider]

Quote: Originally Posted by Shady Mike

Bro I'm really not going to get into it with you because THAT RIGHT THERE was the dumbest statement about basketball that I have EVER seen in my life.

Yawn.

Stockton, Fisher, and Beverley are PGs because they guard opposing PGs. It's as straight forward as that.

Feel free to over react to your heart's content over a very simple concept.

[Real2KInsider]

Quote: Originally Posted by BluFu

LeBron isn't a point guard per se... but if you look at all of his seasons, there's not a single one of his teams he hasn't paced in assists.

Joakim Noah lead his team in assists last season. Assists are a result of ball dominance, i.e. player role, not "position".

Evan Turner has a higher assist rate than Marcus Smart but it's pretty clear who is playing PG in Boston.

Quote:

And to say Bev, Fisher etc are every bit point guards as John Stockton is nonsensical.

What position did they play 99% of their career minutes?

Quote:

Those players mainly played/play as off-ball spot up shooters in their offense whereas Stockton initiated almost every play with very few spot up opportunities. The only similarity they have with Stockton is by position, not role.

You are reiterating my point.

[Real2KInsider]

Quote: Originally Posted by Shady Mike

But yea, the way the league is moving (more towards position-less basketball)I would love to be able to set guys like Evan Turner and Tyreke Evans as Primary Small Forward, Secondary shooting guard, and also have the ability for them to sub in as the Point Guard for the Tertiary position...same goes for an Iman Shumpert...Hell for LeBron James he would need a 4th slot for Power Forward!

There are a handful of players that play three positions on even a semi-regular basis. LeBron isn't one of them.

Adding more positions to LeBron is only going to confuse the AI further. The Cavaliers IRL for example simply do not employ LeBron-Smith-Marion-Love-Mozgov lineups. This is what you are inadvertently inviting. In a worst case scenario (every PG is hurt/ejected) the game engine is already smart enough to select the "best" candidate for the rarely applicable situation.

Quote:

Or at least have the logic to make 6th men come off the bench regardless of OVR...Like Isaiah Thomas, Manu Ginobli, and James Harden (In OKC of course...)

I've discussed this with 2K, and it is theoretically doable. The game would need to factor shooting tendencies when formulating a lineup, with a team slider as the control for how much "scoring" to place in the starting unit.

As far as the implementation goes, substitution logic needs to be improved upon before refinements to automated starting lineups can have a truly positive effect. Baby steps.

[Shady Mike]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rashidi

Yawn. Stockton, Fisher, and Beverley are PGs because they guard opposing PGs. It's as straight forward as that. Feel free to over react to your heart's content over a very simple concept.

Well if you turn to the Warriors Pelicans game right now Quincy Pondexter has been guarding Steph Curry all night, so by your logic I guess that makes him a PG right now so you know, w/e...seems legit.

>>DON'T FEED THE TROLL<<

Anyways back to my point

Quote: Originally Posted by Taer

The real issue is not "official position" but utilization. LeBron's utilization in CPU/AI playcalling should be that of "Ball-handler" "Play-caller" and "Floor General". Regardless of his named position. Da_Czar is working on updating everything but he still has a very long way to go and the new playbooks need to take into consideration today's fluidity v yesterday's rigidness, although when you realize that Magic Johnson was utilized as more than a traditional PG, you realize even 30 years ago such rigidness was an artificial construct. If a team had 5 cloned Anthony Davis players, you don't think they would field all 5 on the court at one time? I do. 2k's AI needs work on recognizing the capabilities of its roster's players and then deploying those players to fully take advantage of them. Increasing the number of available positions won't do any good unless the playbooks are flexible enough to utilize every player's abilities. Especially after trades in the modes like MC and MyGM/MyLeague.

Taer I'm an offline only player so it's always in regards to things like CPU "logic" and things of that nature. That was really my motive of making this post in another thread titled "Fixing this HAS to be priority #1 in 2K16..." I posted THIS picture in the OP:



Now I cited this as a "problem", but I think that this is a problem that ANY coach in the league would love to have...I'm sure that if somehow the Clippers acquired Dwight Howard and were able to maintain Deandre they would indeed at least TRY and start them both to form what would debateably be one of the most devastating defensive front courts in the history of our league (Nevermind Blake we are just talking a hypothetical situation right now where just Deandre and Dwight are on the same team)...the only issue is that with NBA 2K they will literally slate Dwight Howard at 35mpg, and Deandre at like 18 (Bench minutes basically) and regardless of his skill or OVR the game just sees him as a reserve...I would like a logic that would either say HEY, lets start them both and "try" Blake at the 3, or explore a trade...and right now THAT is what 2K is lacking...