AI Logic...Separation

[ksuttonjr76]

I feel like I might re-opening a can of worms, but let's see where this goes...I think this perspective deserves to be brought to the forefront.

Quote: Originally Posted by Bornindamecca

How fixing CPU recovery logic makes the game MORE Sim: In most of the situations where the ball handler gains an advantage, it is marginal. By improving the CPU logic, i.e. giving it more options for knowing it has lost advantage, you create more decision making opportunities for both players. In high level competition, expert competitors learn to take advantage of smaller opportunities. Right now, 2k has some trouble with providing smaller ball handling advantages that wouldn't lead to a layup, but just a recoverable collapse of the defense that would put the onus on the defensive players to recover and on offensive players to take advantage of that motion with an open basket, cut or mismatch. Keep in mind, that some player matchups will provide no real advantage at all, and the offense will need much more than their PG gaining a step off of the dribble to generate a high percentage shot. Shane Larkin getting a step on John Wall, for an extreme example. John's size and athleticism ensure that an aggressive Shane could risk a turnover or block if he over plays his advantage. Shane would have to pull John and the defense in but launch a secondary action after dribble penetration to really capitalize. If the reverse were the case, John might be able to draw harder help, because the defense knows he can finish over Shane if they don't protect the basket. Now we have a dynamic situation that's dependent on the lineups on the floor, the individual player skill and the ability of both teams to make reads. No defense is created based on keeping John Wall from gaining a step on his man. Or Westbrook, or Teage or Lillard and many others. You minimize the advantage and try to force the opponent to make tough, quick reads. We can't have that if the CPU is warping out of small advantages back to neutral, or worse, into defensive advantage. If we don't want the fix to make the game easy or more arcade, it's all about specifying our advice. In that spirit, I ask that we all please stop talking about player success and start talking about CPU behavior.

My response...

Quote: Originally Posted by ksuttonjr76

Okay...THIS is thinking outside the box, and I can get on board for this fix. Makes logical sense to me. When I play on-the-ball defense (video game or IRL), when a player beats me off the dribble, I have already made up my mind whether or not I can recover to make a play. If you blew past me, then I more than likely might leak out for an easy fastbreak opportunity. If I think I got a slight chance, I might try to pursue the ballhandler and attempt to block the shot from behind. I think what you're saying is that AI is not recognizing the "small separation" as being "beaten". As a result, the AI is still trying to position itself in front of the ballhandler which may be causing some wonky animations and collisions, because certain real life movements are not replicated (tripping over a player's feet, body checking not being called fouls, etc) in the game. Here's the million dollar question. How much space is considered "beaten", before you tell the AI to branch into other decisions/options? In real life, if a ballhandler created more than an arm's length in separation from me, then I considered myself "beaten"; however, there's still that fine line where I might make a play on the ball from behind, leak for a fastbreak, or even rotate to a new player to prevent the kickout depending on how the defense collapsed on the drive. Now, we're talking basketball....loving this game.

What's everyone's thoughts? Instead of trying to "fix" the warping and body checking, should the Developers focus on the AI logic in those situations? Thus far, the AI is showing to be very dynamic, and very capable of making mostly wise basketball decisions. Will adding this additional layer of decision making make the AI even better?

[Agame]

I like everything in the post. I want to remind everyone that there are patches coming per Da Czar....... Let's see when the patch comes in the examples you're giving if we see the improvement. If not, then hopefully one of the engineers/Da Czar will see your post and make adjustments.

[Sundown]

Quote: Originally Posted by ksuttonjr76

What's everyone's thoughts? Instead of trying to "fix" the warping and body checking, should the Developers focus on the AI logic in those situations? Thus far, the AI is showing to be very dynamic, and very capable of making mostly wise basketball decisions. Will adding this additional layer of decision making make the AI even better?

This has been the prescription to fixing on-ball bumping since 2K11 and warping in 2K12. Varying degrees of penetrations need to be allowed rather than a binary blowby-or-not mechanic. In the current situations where the CPU warps into position after being beat, it should attempt pursuit without warping while help moves to contain penetration and force a read.

I'm not sure but I think it's possible that the current difficulty of penetrating (which I may actually be okay with overall) may be masking some AI help defense weaknesses -- ones I tend to see when the CPU blows me by, and ones that show up in the pick and roll.

[Young Coaches]

Honestly, the game was fine last year. I am so glad that the issues are being resolved and it's not like Online Association where I'm the only one who sees this My League as a sub w/o free agency and player development. Dudes are enjoying the changes as well as rejecting them.

I will say this though, I rock with the Spurs. And this new system of defense. . . Not every team wins versus the Spurs, I run elite plays. I sent Scott oGallagher a long list of more than 30 plays that I wanted in the game from 2k14 first gen, that by the grace of our lord, are now in the Spurs playbook (so shouts out to him). But let me tell you something else, cause I love that y'all are enjoying the changes, but how many screens can you actually ice, recognize, know where they are coming from and even double team the ball handler through them BEFORE knowing that a screen will be there. My explanation to y'all is, the game is fine. We keep changing and it's annoying man. I'm 27, we're getting old. Now the new buttons, for the most part are hot. But nobody got time to, what is it that they call it a physics engine? It's annoying. Leave the game alone, the last first gen 2Ks that were taken serious were or are the motor (2k13, 2k14 (I think we can all agree on that). But these motions and animations on next gen, ugh, it's only doing it for the competition, I'm tellin y'all.

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[ksuttonjr76]

Bumping this thread. Mike Wang is going to "fix" the "sticky defense" by the CPU.

I truly believe this is a better solution. Don't fix the animation...fix the AI logic.